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Prior COVID Infection Is As Effective At Preventing Reinfection As Vaccination

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And most of them won't.
    And I say again - even a small percentage of millions is a heck of a lot of suffering people, to say nothing of the impact on covid and non-covid patients of reduced access to healthcare because of high covid levels.

    There will be a tipping point where herd immunity is obtained. But the virus is not ever going to be eradicated. Vaxxed and unvaxxed will continue to get the virus until time stops.
    Unfortunately, I think you're right. The opportunity to eradicate SARS-COV2 was there, but we've missed the boat. Thing is, covid-naive vaxxed folk are safer than covid-naive unvaxxed folk.

    It's what multiple studies say. Natural immunity is sufficient to ward off reinfection in nearly all cases. And the rare risks from the vaccines aren't worth the extra protection when they haven't even established what "good enough" is yet.
    I disagree with your last point. But more importantly, vaccination before the first infection offers the same protection as natural immunity, without the risks (to you and others) of hospitalisation, death or overwhelmed health services. Sorry to keep harping on about this, but it's a fundamental point which I don't think you're getting.

    ...but I will stand firm on what the studies have repeatedly shown, that the "extra protection" is no more necessary than the vaccinated intentionally getting sick.
    Sorry, what exactly are you talking about here? Do you mean "extra protection" from vaccination after infection? I'm not hot on all the data but the Israeli study suggested exacly that - vaccination on top of natural immunity gives better protection than natural imunity alone. The OP study didn't seem to address this question, although they might have the data sitting there to answer it. TBH, whilst I'd encourage vaccination post-infection, it's WAY more important to do vaccination BEFORE infection. That's what I'm encouraging my patients to do most of all.

    ...because every forum needs a Jimbo

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by JimboJSR View Post

      This data matches quite clearly what we're seeing in UK hospitals. Whilst many inpatients are vaccinated, that's because (1) we have more vaccinated than unvaccinated, and (2) the vaccinated include the vast majority of our most at-risk patients (elderly, immunosuppressed,etc). So the "vaccinated" cohort are at a big disadvantage from the outset compared to our "vaccinated" cohort. In our younger hospitalised patients, LOADS of them are unvaccinated.
      I found the article I was remembering:

      Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-doctors-find-severe-covid-19-breakthrough-cases-mostly-older-sicker-2021-08-20/


      Around half of the country's 600 patients presently hospitalized with severe illness have received two doses of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N) shot, a rare occurrence out of 5.4 million fully vaccinated people.

      The majority of these patients received two vaccine doses at least five months ago, are over the age of 60 and also have chronic illnesses known to exacerbate a coronavirus infection. They range from diabetes to heart disease and lung ailments, as well as cancers and inflammatory diseases that are treated with immune-system suppressing drugs, according to Reuters interviews with 11 doctors, health specialists and officials.

      "The vaccinated patients are older, unhealthy, often they were bedridden before infection, immobile and already requiring nursing care," said Noa Eliakim-Raz, head of the coronavirus ward at Rabin Medical Centre in Petach Tikva.

      In contrast, "the unvaccinated COVID patients we see are young, healthy, working people and their condition deteriorates rapidly," she said. "Suddenly they're being put on oxygen or on a respirator."

      © Copyright Original Source



      And

      Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why

      according to Health Ministry data, the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category

      © Copyright Original Source


      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JimboJSR View Post

        And I say again - even a small percentage of millions is a heck of a lot of suffering people, to say nothing of the impact on covid and non-covid patients of reduced access to healthcare because of high covid levels.
        So are you for mandated flu shots too since it causes 9 million – 41 million illnesses, 140,000 – 710,000 hospitalizations and 12,000 – 52,000 deaths annually in the US?



        Unfortunately, I think you're right. The opportunity to eradicate SARS-COV2 was there, but we've missed the boat. Thing is, covid-naive vaxxed folk are safer than covid-naive unvaxxed folk.
        I have no doubt of that. But again, if we are talking about the BESTTM protection available, it seems to be recovered AND vaxxed.



        I disagree with your last point. But more importantly, vaccination before the first infection offers the same protection as natural immunity, without the risks (to you and others) of hospitalisation, death or overwhelmed health services. Sorry to keep harping on about this, but it's a fundamental point which I don't think you're getting.
        The problem is that millions of us are NOT in that situation (vaccination before the first infection), yet we are being ignored based on this unicorn of the BESTTM protection. If the BESTTM protection is the desirable level of protection, then the unavoidable implication is that being vaccinated before infection is also insufficient.


        Sorry, what exactly are you talking about here? Do you mean "extra protection" from vaccination after infection? I'm not hot on all the data but the Israeli study suggested exacly that - vaccination on top of natural immunity gives better protection than natural immunity alone. The OP study didn't seem to address this question, although they might have the data sitting there to answer it. TBH, whilst I'd encourage vaccination post-infection, it's WAY more important to do vaccination BEFORE infection. That's what I'm encouraging my patients to do most of all.
        And I also have routinely encouraged non-recovered people to be vaccinated if possible. What I have been fighting vehemently is the notion that my immunity is somehow inferior to a vaccinated person and that I NEED the extra protection to be considered kosher like the vaxxed people somehow are...
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          So are you for mandated flu shots too since it causes 9 million – 41 million illnesses, 140,000 – 710,000 hospitalizations and 12,000 – 52,000 deaths annually in the US?
          Flu: 12-52k deaths a year. Covid: 750k deaths in 18 months, despite intermittent lockdowns and mass vaccination - without these, it would have been massively more.

          I have no doubt of that. But again, if we are talking about the BESTTM protection available, it seems to be recovered AND vaxxed.
          Agree. My worry is that this (very sensible) statement easily mutates into "why get vaccinated when you can first get infected and have GREAT protection?", which ignores all the risks of that first infection which I've been going on about.

          The problem is that millions of us are NOT in that situation (vaccination before the first infection), yet we are being ignored based on this unicorn of the BESTTM protection. If the BESTTM protection is the desirable level of protection, then the unavoidable implication is that being vaccinated before infection is also insufficient.
          That problem is easy to solve - get a booster if you're high risk and not yet been infected.

          And I also have routinely encouraged non-recovered people to be vaccinated if possible. What I have been fighting vehemently is the notion that my immunity is somehow inferior to a vaccinated person and that I NEED the extra protection to be considered kosher like the vaxxed people somehow are...
          The more evidence we have of the efficacy / longevity of immunity post-infection, the stronger your case is going to be. You do seem to be taking this rather personally though. In an environment where the longevity of natural immunity was not at all clear, I think the authorities erring on the side of caution and encouraging as widespread vaccination as possible is perfectly sensible.
          ...because every forum needs a Jimbo

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by JimboJSR View Post

            Flu: 12-52k deaths a year. Covid: 750k deaths in 18 months, despite intermittent lockdowns and mass vaccination - without these, it would have been massively more.
            Without sounding overly crass.... what's the threshold of acceptable deaths before we care enough to mandate the fix?

            Agree. My worry is that this (very sensible) statement easily mutates into "why get vaccinated when you can first get infected and have GREAT protection?", which ignores all the risks of that first infection which I've been going on about.
            But shouldn't that be up to each person?

            That problem is easy to solve - get a booster if you're high risk and not yet been infected.
            Still have the same issue. Insufficient levels of protection.


            The more evidence we have of the efficacy / longevity of immunity post-infection, the stronger your case is going to be.
            Yale just put out a study that says their model shows people with natural immunity can expect to catch COVID every 16 months. I'm 6 months in. My case keeps getting stronger.

            You do seem to be taking this rather personally though.
            Our tyrant in the White House is threatening my job unless I comply with his dictator proclamation by next month.

            In an environment where the longevity of natural immunity was not at all clear, I think the authorities erring on the side of caution and encouraging as widespread vaccination as possible is perfectly sensible.
            ​​​​​​​But in the face of overwhelming evidence now, they have no excuse mandating vaccines for recovered people. Yet they persist, and my job is on the line.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Without sounding overly crass.... what's the threshold of acceptable deaths before we care enough to mandate the fix?
              Don't think there's an easy answer to that question. A good argument can be made for never mandating vaccination. I'm in two minds about it. That said, we're WAY past the threshold where any informed, caring person should be getting vaccinated for the benefit of everyone.


              Still have the same issue. Insufficient levels of protection.
              No idea how this follows, sorry.

              Our tyrant in the White House is threatening my job unless I comply with his dictator proclamation by next month.
              You might well be right that insisting on vacinating previously infected people will turn out to be an over-reaction which didn't add much to our fight against covid. But a low-risk intervention like this to squeeze every last bit of juice out of our vaccines isn't unreasonable. Given the chaos of covid, and the lockdowns which we want to avoid at any cost, erring on the side of "too many vaccines" seems way more sensible than erring on the side of "too few vaccines".

              Honestly Bill, this really does read like you throwing a girly little strop for a silly reason. Get some perspective, man. Millions have died, and lockdowns have caused lots of harm too. We want to do everything we can to avoid both these things. Just suck it up and take the darned vaccine. Regardless of your hurt feelings regarding recognition of your immunity, the risk/benefit ratio makes sense.
              ...because every forum needs a Jimbo

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JimboJSR View Post
                Honestly Bill, this really does read like you throwing a girly little strop for a silly reason. Get some perspective, man. Millions have died, and lockdowns have caused lots of harm too. We want to do everything we can to avoid both these things. Just suck it up and take the darned vaccine. Regardless of your hurt feelings regarding recognition of your immunity, the risk/benefit ratio makes sense.
                Edited by a Moderator

                Moderated By: QuantaFille

                Please watch your language.

                ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                Last edited by QuantaFille; 10-24-2021, 08:53 AM.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Nationalist.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                  So why not just let everyone not in a high risk category just get it, recover, THEN get vaccinated? If that's the BEST protection available?

                  The obvious? They do not just 'get it and recover.' Many die and suffer from the after effects of Covid-19 infections.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-23-2021, 11:12 AM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post


                    The obvious? They do not just 'get it and recover.' Many die and suffer from the after effects of Covid-19 infections.
                    So allow them to do a self-risk assessment but not us recovered. Gotcha comrade.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                      So allow them to do a self-risk assessment but not us recovered. Gotcha comrade.
                      Yes, everyone has the ability to do a self-risk assessment, but it is the most unreliable way to assess one's risk to Covid-19.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                        Yes, everyone has the ability to do a self-risk assessment, but it is the most unreliable way to assess one's risk to Covid-19.
                        No I do not have that ability. It's jab or job direct from Adolf Biden
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                          No I do not have that ability. It's jab or job direct from Adolf Biden
                          Actually the choice in reality is jab or become a high probability casualty and/or vector for the spread of Covid-19. Legally required vaccinations to prevent casualties and spread of disease have been around for many many years and endorsed in the past by both political parties.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                            Actually the choice in reality is jab or become a high probability casualty and/or vector for the spread of Covid-19. Legally required vaccinations to prevent casualties and spread of disease have been around for many many years and endorsed in the past by both political parties.
                            That is just utter ignorance of the numbers Frank. The probability of being a casualty is under 3%. That is not a high probability. And as I have said ad nauseum, being already recovered reduces that probability tremendously. You as a vaxxed only stand a greater chance of spreading it than me.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                              That is just utter ignorance of the numbers Frank. The probability of being a casualty is under 3%. That is not a high probability. And as I have said ad nauseum, being already recovered reduces that probability tremendously. You as a vaxxed only stand a greater chance of spreading it than me.
                              Sounds like your advocating a form of Eugenics. That is just utter ignorance of the numbers including those with dillibating long term effects of Covid-19.Including usng misleading numbers with a cold indifference to those who die and suffer long term effects of Covid-19.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                Sounds like your advocating a form of Eugenics. That is just utter ignorance of the numbers including those with dillibating long term effects of Covid-19.Including usng misleading numbers with a cold indifference to those who die and suffer long term effects of Covid-19.
                                Where did I suggest killing anyone? Quit using words you clearly don't understand.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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