Serious Questions About The Way Covid Deaths Have Been Counted

[shunyadragon]

Can you define "prive", please? Given your 'decent education'.

Typos are not an indication of education. I apologize the word is prove. Though the lack of cherent responses with reference does reflect your lack of intelligence or an agenda;

Again . . . This does not go to the doctors in hospitals. It goes to the hospitals. IF you have references of reliable sources of kickbacks to doctors please provide them.

[Cow Poke]

Typos are not an indication of education. I apologize the word is prove. Though the lack of cherent responses with reference does reflect your lack of intelligence or an agenda;

Again . . . This does not go to the doctors in hospitals. It goes to the hospitals. IF you have references of reliable sources of kickbacks to doctors please provide them.

My brudder Rogue already addressed this.

[shunyadragon]

My brudder Rogue already addressed this.

I already addressed rogue's nonsense. Still waiting for a coherent response with references from both of you. I do not expect any forthcoming.

[shunyadragon]

Source: https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/working-stiff/85925

How Accurate Is the Coronavirus Death Toll?

— A forensic pathologist's perspective



At an April 7 news conference, Deborah Birx, MD, t

he response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, said, "There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem -- some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now ... if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death."

That statement might make you conclude that the U.S. COVID-19 data will be skewed to count many people who died with COVID-19 as an irrelevant background condition, inflating the numbers up from the count of those who clearly died from the effects of the virus. Yet the New York Times, the Washington Post, and many other news agencies have reported stories showing that the tally of COVID-19 deaths in the United States and elsewhere in the world is almost certainly an undercount. They cite epidemiological data showing that the overall numbers of deaths during the months of this pandemic have far outpaced the death rate during the same period in recent past years, and postulate that the lack of available testing might be a reason why COVID-19 would not make it onto a death certificate.

So which one is it? Are we undercounting or overcounting? Can we trust the numbers?

It's complicated. In the United States, most death investigation systems are funded and organized on a county basis across hundreds of agencies. Early in the pandemic, when testing was not readily available and community spread was present but not yet recognized, it is likely that, in some areas, patients with underlying disease and poor health may have died from undiagnosed COVID-19 infection. Other regions, the ones that responded to the outbreak by developing widespread testing, might be swabbing every decedent regardless of the circumstances of death, either as a public health screening program to gather data on community spread, or in order to protect morgue workers from infectious disease exposure during an autopsy.

Regardless of the availability of testing at their disparate death investigation agencies, medical examiners and coroners across the country are guided by the National Vital Statistics System (NVSS) guidelines for death certification. A death certificate has two sections where the doctor who investigated the case will write the cause of death. Part I is the underlying disease or injury that starts the lethal sequence of events. Part II is for any other underlying conditions that the decedent had that made the death more likely.

The NVSS guidelines state, "If COVID-19 played a role in the death, this condition should be specified on the death certificate. In many cases, it is likely that it will be the underlying cause of death, as it can lead to various life-threatening conditions, such as pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). In some cases, survival from COVID-19 can be complicated by pre-existing chronic conditions, especially those that result in diminished lung capacity, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) or asthma. These medical conditions do not cause COVID-19, but can increase the risk of contracting a respiratory infection and death, so these conditions should be reported in Part II and not in Part I."

So, pathologists don't certify deaths as due to COVID-19 based solely on a positive nasopharyngeal swab. We get a clinical history of shortness of breath, chest pain, fever, cough. Yes, it is possible that someone could be an asymptomatic carrier and die of heart disease -- but in those cases we would certify the cause of death as heart disease and document the COVID-19 infection as a significant contributing condition, for several reasons.

Number one, COVID-19 can affect the heart (via myocarditis, pericarditis, or the formation of microthrombi). Number two, it's possible that the death may not have happened without the stress on medical resources caused by the pandemic. That's one of the reasons why the death toll in Italy is so bad -- their otherwise excellent healthcare system was grievously overloaded by a huge wave of COVID-19 patients. People who would've survived heart attacks during normal times died without medical intervention because they couldn't make it to the hospital or because the hospital couldn't treat them in time to save them. On some level it may be true that some natural-manner deaths being attributed to the virus could be seen as inflating the official COVID-19 numbers, but a failure to acknowledge and examine the pandemic's effect on the diagnosis and treatment of other natural deaths would also be problematic from a public health perspective.

To quote Dr. Ed Donoghue, a forensic pathology colleague at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, "No matter how these deaths are currently being attributed, after this pandemic terminates, an excellent approximation of the true fatality rate of COVID-19 deaths can be made by the calculation of the excess mortality for the period. This calculation was very helpful during the 1995 Chicago heat wave. Almost certainly, because of the scarcity of testing and other reasons, we will find that the number of COVID-19 deaths has been grossly underestimated." The final death toll is going to depend on multiple factors: the density of the population; availability of testing; genetic factors (both host and virus); the public health response; and the robustness of the healthcare system.

A soldier in the heat of battle can't think strategically about the outcome of the wider war. The death toll of COVID-19 is not going to be accurate until epidemiologists and statisticians have time to crunch the numbers. But the excess stresses on our healthcare system are clearly evident in countless firsthand reports from emergency rooms and ICUs in our hardest-hit regions. The challenges of formulating a real-time body count must not be offered as an excuse to abandon or dial back the mitigation measures that we know are working to keep whole populations alive and safe. We are slogging through a slow, brutal, worldwide mass-fatality event. Whatever the final tally, it will be a terrible one.

Judy Melinek, MD, is a forensic pathologist and CEO of PathologyExpert Inc. Her New York Times bestselling memoir, co-authored with her husband, writer T.J. Mitchell, is Working Stiff: Two Years, 262 Bodies, and the Making of a Medical Examiner. They've also embarked on a medical-examiner detective novel series with First Cut, now available from Hanover Square Press.

© Copyright Original Source

[Stoic]

My daughter is a Hospice Nurse Trainer -- she comes into contact with this all the time with her trainees - they know which doctors to call if they want a simple "this is what happened" death certificate, and which ones will just declare it a COVID death regardless.

Are you referring to deaths that take place in hospice?

Because there were less than 20 thousand of those.

[Cow Poke]

Are you referring to deaths that take place in hospice?

Because there were less than 20 thousand of those.

I'm saying, as I have said, that I know for a fact that it's happening there, so it doesn't stretch reason to believe it's happening elsewhere, as well.

[Stoic]

I'm saying, as I have said, that I know for a fact that it's happening there, so it doesn't stretch reason to believe it's happening elsewhere, as well.

What exactly is happening there? Are the hospice nurse trainees calling particular doctors in order to get the death certificate to say covid? Why?

Do the doctors put that down as the only cause of death? As the underlying cause? As a contributing cause?

[Cow Poke]

What exactly is happening there? Are the hospice nurse trainees calling particular doctors in order to get the death certificate to say covid? Why?

Other way around - they're trying NOT to call the doctors who automatically chalk it up as a COVID death.

Do the doctors put that down as the only cause of death? As the underlying cause? As a contributing cause?

It's complicated.

[Stoic]

Other way around - they're trying NOT to call the doctors who automatically chalk it up as a COVID death.

Do these doctors automatically chalk it up as a covid death, even without a positive test result?

It's complicated.

Yes, it's complicated, and there are probably some cases where covid is incorrectly blamed, just as there are some cases where covid is not listed when it should be.

But the estimates of excess deaths suggest that the count isn't too far off.

[Cow Poke]

Do these doctors automatically chalk it up as a covid death, even without a positive test result?

One particular doctor asked "have any of his (the deceased) family members had COVID or tested positive?
A niece - who had not even visited the deceased - had tested positive for COVID, so the doctor told her to list as a COVID death.

And, let me be clear - these are fully certified Hospice nurses - the only reason I'm referring to them as "trainees" is because my daughter is a trainer, and they report to her for advanced training and COVID protocols.

Yes, it's complicated, and there are probably some cases where covid is incorrectly blamed, just as there are some cases where covid is not listed when it should be.

OK, so how would that happen. How could somebody die of COVID, and nobody know it?

But the estimates of excess deaths suggest that the count isn't too far off.

Yet you have sources claiming that the COVID deaths are way UNDER reported, and others claiming they are way OVER reported.

Just like everything else having to do with COVID - the messaging is some of the absolute worst and contradictory I've ever seen.

Here's a thought for you ---- If vaccination is so absolutely vital to our country, even to the point of kicking people out of the military and healthcare - why do we have tens of THOSANDS of illegals streaming across our border, and the Biden administration doesn't give a flyin' flip?

[Stoic]

One particular doctor asked "have any of his (the deceased) family members had COVID or tested positive?
A niece - who had not even visited the deceased - had tested positive for COVID, so the doctor told her to list as a COVID death.

Told her to, or said that he was going to?

The person who fills out the death certificate is supposed to be a doctor.

And, let me be clear - these are fully certified Hospice nurses - the only reason I'm referring to them as "trainees" is because my daughter is a trainer, and they report to her for advanced training and COVID protocols.

Okay.

OK, so how would that happen. How could somebody die of COVID, and nobody know it?

From your last link:

Nevertheless, the official numbers don’t capture all COVID-19 deaths, for several reasons.

When tests for COVID-19 were scarce while the pandemic raced across the country in the spring of 2020, many infected people died without being tested. That includes those who showed mild symptoms or symptoms that were attributed to other causes.

“If anything, we’re missing patients who had COVID,” Raja says.

The same is true for deaths that occurred at home, Aiken explains. Even now, tests are usually conducted only if a medical examiner or coroner has a reason to suspect that a coronavirus infection played a role in someone’s death.

Yet you have sources claiming that the COVID deaths are way UNDER reported, and others claiming they are way OVER reported.

Just like everything else having to do with COVID - the messaging is some of the absolute worst and contradictory I've ever seen.

Here's a thought for you ---- If vaccination is so absolutely vital to our country, even to the point of kicking people out of the military and healthcare - why do we have tens of THOSANDS of illegals streaming across our border, and the Biden administration doesn't give a flyin' flip?

I wouldn't say they don't give a flyin' flip. Our border is not an easy problem to solve. Trump didn't solve it, even if talked about it in a way that you liked.

As for the numbers, tens of millions unvaccinated is arguably a much bigger problem than tens of thousands of illegals.

[shunyadragon]

One particular doctor asked "have any of his (the deceased) family members had COVID or tested positive?
A niece - who had not even visited the deceased - had tested positive for COVID, so the doctor told her to list as a COVID death.

And, let me be clear - these are fully certified Hospice nurses - the only reason I'm referring to them as "trainees" is because my daughter is a trainer, and they report to her for advanced training and COVID protocols.



OK, so how would that happen. How could somebody die of COVID, and nobody know it?



Yet you have sources claiming that the COVID deaths are way UNDER reported, and others claiming they are way OVER reported.

Just like everything else having to do with COVID - the messaging is some of the absolute worst and contradictory I've ever seen.

Here's a thought for you ---- If vaccination is so absolutely vital to our country, even to the point of kicking people out of the military and healthcare - why do we have tens of THOSANDS of illegals streaming across our border, and the Biden administration doesn't give a flyin' flip?

You have not responded to the sourse I provide, Which reliable academic sources claim that there is a significant over count sufficient to change the total fatalities in the course of the pandemic? I know of none, zip nada and of course zero.

[Cow Poke]

Told her to, or said that he was going to?

The person who fills out the death certificate is supposed to be a doctor.

You're not familiar, evidently, with the Hospice process in the US.
There is a form that is filled out at the time of death that will list the cause of death under authority from a doctor.

The Hospice process is much different than dying in a hospital or being investigated as a murder or accident or homicide or whatever.

[Cow Poke]

I wouldn't say they don't give a flyin' flip. Our border is not an easy problem to solve. Trump didn't solve it, even if talked about it in a way that you liked.

Neither side wants to solve it - it's a political football both sides appear to need as campaign material.

As for the numbers, tens of millions unvaccinated is arguably a much bigger problem than tens of thousands of illegals.

What percent of the hundreds of thousands entering our country illegally are vaccinated? Do you even have a guess?

We hear all the time that we just reach a certain percentage (and that keeps changing), so an influx of a whole bunch of people who are mostly unvaccinated would most certainly affect that total percentage.

[Cow Poke]

Told her to, or said that he was going to?

The person who fills out the death certificate is supposed to be a doctor.

You're not familiar, evidently, with the Hospice process in the US.
There is a form that is filled out at the time of death that will list the cause of death under authority from a doctor.

The Hospice process is much different than dying in a hospital or being investigated as a murder or accident or homicide or whatever.

Hey, Stoic -- I apologize -- I have been getting some of your responses mixed up with Eider(?), who is not a US Citizen.
Sorry about that - and I'll try to pay better attention.