As the Next Covid Season Approaches

[eider]

...............
This, I think, has led to the problem of a society that is over vaccinated and over medicated, and frankly, a lot of this stuff is a lot more dangerous than the medical profession is willing to admit.

And you know all this......how?

If your region should be so unlucky as to get the Indian, Delta Covid culture which is 40% more infectious than the Kent, Alfa culture, both of these being nastier.... I expect you will find that a lot of the un-vaxxed folks will be queuing for vaccination.

In the UK, despite being affected by both the above cultures, our death and hospital admission rates are still much reduced thanks to 90% of the adult population supporting vaccination.

[Mountain Man]

And you know all this......how?

I read a lot. You need to take my statement in context. Yes, vaccines and other medications are safe and effective in so far as the medical community defines those terms, but they are not as safe and effective as the general public is led to believe.

[rogue06]

I read a lot. You need to take my statement in context. Yes, vaccines and other medications are safe and effective in so far as the medical community defines those terms, but they are not as safe and effective as the general public is led to believe.

FWIU the track record of vaccines is better than most every other type of medical procedure.

[Mountain Man]

FWIU the track record of vaccines is better than most every other type of medical procedure.

As a whole, yes. In a number of specific instances, no.

[eider]

I read a lot. You need to take my statement in context. Yes, vaccines and other medications are safe and effective in so far as the medical community defines those terms, but they are not as safe and effective as the general public is led to believe.

.....is led to believe......
I don't know about where you live but where I live nobody receives a vaccination for any illness without first being told by the medic what the known risks and facts are.

You can't have an operation or procedure of any kind without first being informed of risks etc, and signing to ackowledge the info received and accepting the risks.
This was not always the case, here.
50 years ago my pregnant wife was prescribed a drug for her epilepsy which contained sodium valproate (epilim) and as a result our third child was born with horrific disabilities and injuries, clubbed feet, spina bifida, hydracephalus ... I know about medication going wrong. He died after a month of life. So I don't support vaccinations etc blindly, I just can see that sometimes we have to bite the bullet and take reasonable risks when faced with pandemics. Or don't you believe that you are within one?

Everybody that I know around here has taken the jab. That's why our stats are so low now.

[Mountain Man]

.....is led to believe......
I don't know about where you live but where I live nobody receives a vaccination for any illness without first being told by the medic what the known risks and facts are.

You can't have an operation or procedure of any kind without first being informed of risks etc, and signing to ackowledge the info received and accepting the risks.
This was not always the case, here.
50 years ago my pregnant wife was prescribed a drug for her epilepsy which contained sodium valproate (epilim) and as a result our third child was born with horrific disabilities and injuries, clubbed feet, spina bifida, hydracephalus ... I know about medication going wrong. He died after a month of life. So I don't support vaccinations etc blindly, I just can see that sometimes we have to bite the bullet and take reasonable risks when faced with pandemics. Or don't you believe that you are within one?

Everybody that I know around here has taken the jab. That's why our stats are so low now.

Yes, led to believe. If you dare question the "scientific consensus" regarding vaccinations then you're immediately labeled an "anti-vaxxer" and treated like a wild-eyed conspiracy theorist. This has the effect of compelling many people to simply accept what they're told.

[mikewhitney]

Oh Mike! I clicked on your link and the very first page warned readers thus:-

COVID-19 AstraZeneca Vaccine Analysis Print Report Run Date: 28-May-2021 Data Lock Date: 26-May-2021 19:00:03 All UK spontaneous reports received between 4/01/21 and 26/05/2021 for COVID-19 vaccine Oxford University/AstraZeneca. A report of a suspected ADR to the Yellow Card scheme does not necessarily mean that it was caused by the vaccine, only that the reporter has a suspicion it may have. Underlying or previously undiagnosed illness unrelated to vaccination can also be factors in such reports. The relative number and nature of reports should therefore not be used to compare the safety of the different vaccines. All reports are kept under continual review in order to identify possible new risks

......... but you ignored that warning and thus treated every reported death as 'caused by Covid vaccination'. Sadly, some folks can be frightened by deceptions like that and discourage them from taking the vaccination...... and in Europe it has happened much more than it has here. Now look at the European Covid stats as compared to the Brit ones.

This is basically the easier thing to answer -- compared to your previous post.

I have presented the argument on the VAERS data (the US system) which is applicable to the current discussion. Perhaps the degree of reporting is a bit different though. IN the US it was shown that only 1% of adverse effects are reported to VAERS. If we said that half of the VAERS deaths were accurately ascribed to the covid shots, then we would multiply by 100 based on this 1% figure from the Harvard study. So we would have 4400/2 to get 2200 deaths by the covid shots. I think the multiplication by 100 would be excessive. Let's say VAERS was off by a factor of 10. That would give us 22000 deaths. This could be correct but possibly it is too high. But this is sort of how things calculate out. Since VAERS is a voluntary system, not all deaths get reported. If aunt sue got a covid shot a month ago and now is dead at 74, they don't particularly check if this was related to the covid shot. They often will just say she was old and died.

The numbers can therefore be way low because people are not paying attention to the details. Certainly with VAERS, people are not lightly connecting a death to the vaccine. You just cannot discount the data because the site puts a little warning on it. That is too simplistic to disregard most deaths as incorrect observations.

[eider]

Yes, led to believe. If you dare question the "scientific consensus" regarding vaccinations then you're immediately labeled an "anti-vaxxer" and treated like a wild-eyed conspiracy theorist. This has the effect of compelling many people to simply accept what they're told.

That's rubbish.
...just not true. Where did you dig that up?

People too frightened to get the Covid jab because they've been scared by anti-vax rubbish are not anti-vaxxers...... it's the folks spinning the pseudo science at them who are those.

1 in 3 folks in the US have been scared enough to refuse the vaccinations, they have heard that they could very possibly die from blood clots, etc.
Scared off by quacks, I think.
In the UK 90% of adults over 40yrs have received the vaccinations...... at the %s suggested by the anti-vaxxers there would have been vax-deaths in every street here...... there are not.
Being to frightened to take the jab doesn't make you an anti-vaxxer. Spreading the junk-science probably does!

[eider]

This is basically the easier thing to answer -- compared to your previous post.

I have presented the argument on the VAERS data (the US system) which is applicable to the current discussion. Perhaps the degree of reporting is a bit different though. IN the US it was shown that only 1% of adverse effects are reported to VAERS. If we said that half of the VAERS deaths were accurately ascribed to the covid shots, then we would multiply by 100 based on this 1% figure from the Harvard study. So we would have 4400/2 to get 2200 deaths by the covid shots. I think the multiplication by 100 would be excessive. Let's say VAERS was off by a factor of 10. That would give us 22000 deaths. This could be correct but possibly it is too high. But this is sort of how things calculate out. Since VAERS is a voluntary system, not all deaths get reported. If aunt sue got a covid shot a month ago and now is dead at 74, they don't particularly check if this was related to the covid shot. They often will just say she was old and died.

The numbers can therefore be way low because people are not paying attention to the details. Certainly with VAERS, people are not lightly connecting a death to the vaccine. You just cannot discount the data because the site puts a little warning on it. That is too simplistic to disregard most deaths as incorrect observations.

Hi Mike....
And 'No'.... You have not acknowledged the fact the the 800+ deaths reported in that article were NOT attributable to Covid vaccinations with any evidence, hence that Warning-Forewood.

It's just as I wrote to Mountain Man, if any of your claims, or those of the anti-vaxxers are true, then people would be dying here around where I live. I would KNOW of some victims....... but there aren't any, Mike. Your maths calculations amount to what I call 'spin'... they might bamboozle some folks, but over here we have a vaccinated population... alive, kicking.... QED.

[mikewhitney]

A person who spreads mis-information about a vaccination program and thus puts other people off taking that vaccination. I'll post an example at the bottom of this post for your scrutiny, about a doctor (Andrew Wakefield) who was 'struck off' by the British Medical Association for deterring parents from having their children receive the MMR vaccine, thus putting children and pregnant mothers to be in danger. Sadly he's now in the USA building up a following there..... That would be a good example of an anti-vaxxer, Mike.
. . .

Right....... I'm just going to research that claim more fully, Mike, and will come back to you. Here are details about a (onetime) Brit doctor who has made lots of money out of being an anti-vaxxer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
Andrew Wakefield
British former physician
Andrew Jeremy Wakefield is a British former physician and academic who was struck off the medical register due to his involvement in the Lancet MMR autism fraud, a 1998 study that falsely claimed a link between the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and autism. Wikipedia
Born: 3 September 1956 (age 64 years), Eton
Spouse: Carmel Wakefield

We rightly start with Proverbs 18:17 "The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him."

I can probably get to other stuff you questioned. But I wanted to point out the flaw of what you have done with info about Wakefield.

Instead of doing research, you picked up rotten fruit from the ground -- fruit that tends to make you sick instead of helping anything.

The starting point is the study itself. It is seen in "retracted" form here
https://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-paper.pdf

Wakefield was attacked for saying

If there is a causal link between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and this syndrome, a rising incidence might be anticipated after the introduction of this vaccine in the UK in 1988. Published evidence is inadequate to show whether there is a change in incidence or a link with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine

The data shows parents who reported that the problems happened with the MMR shot. This, however, for Wakefield, was only the reported information which he had logged in the study. His findings are still valid apart from any mention of MMR. His findings are about imflammatory bowels -- something like that. The statement I quoted just reflects an area that could be investigated for causation. It is hardly an unreasonable suggestion. The task simply was not part of his study and he could not make a conclusion about it.

This is science. It was not a recommendation to stop giving vaccinations. Yet, people took action as if he told people vaccinations were harmful.

You can see this short segment: Dr. Wakefield, did your research prove that the MMR causes autism?
youtube.com/watch?v=DHj4GoMAJxQ

You can see more of the discussion and more links at https://vaxxedthemovie.com/andrew-wakefield-biography/

He gives a defense against every accusation -- including all that Brian Deer accused him of . I still think the original study is simple enough evidence that he did nothing wrong.

I did not see a description of the court hearings where Wakefield and another doctor were on trial. As I remember, the other doctor was able to afford a proper defense and therefore was not found guilty of the same charge(s).

Another thing I didn't find yet... a later study (maybe 10 years later) came to the same conclusions about the gut and autism as Wakefield found -- I am doing this by memory too. Whatever exactly the study is, it was a confirmation of what Wakefield found.

For the most part you seem more inclined to hear the evidence.

[mikewhitney]

Hi Mike....
And 'No'.... You have not acknowledged the fact the the 800+ deaths reported in that article were NOT attributable to Covid vaccinations with any evidence, hence that Warning-Forewood.

It's just as I wrote to Mountain Man, if any of your claims, or those of the anti-vaxxers are true, then people would be dying here around where I live. I would KNOW of some victims....... but there aren't any, Mike. Your maths calculations amount to what I call 'spin'... they might bamboozle some folks, but over here we have a vaccinated population... alive, kicking.... QED.

Ok. Lovely. You want people to die right around you. My math calculations are useful as guesstimates. It is plain stupid to suggest first that people are not dying with some sort of coincidence to receiving the experimental shots. For your point to have any validity, there would have to be no deaths anywhere. If there are deaths happening around the time the people got vaccinated, then it is ignorant or biased to say that none of these are happening due to the covid shots. Are you really trying to say that those people just temporarily died or that all those deaths were fake ones? You are deceiving yourself.

Anyhow, the experiment that you can do is to track how many deaths and illness happen to people around you -- contrasting the numbers who got the shots against those who did not. Of course the idea is about percentages -- since few people in the UK seem to be part of the control group of the drug trials.

[mikewhitney]

Wakefield conducted a fraudulent study which got published in the British medical journal The Lancet. Questions started to arise when several attempts to replicate his findings could not even come close to doing so, and then it was revealed that he had major conflict of interest issues he kept hidden (he was being paid by people seeking evidence to use against vaccine manufacturers for his "research") and had manipulated the data in order to get the results he wanted. All of this led to Wakefield's paper being retracted and Wakefield being found guilty by the General Medical Council of serious professional misconduct and subsequently being barred from practicing medicine in the U.K. for falsification of research. Later investigations disclosed that Wakefield had been planning to use the vaccine scare caused by his paper to enrich himself by forming a corporation that would profit from "litigation-driven testing."

Wakefield's fraudulent study led to a drop off in vaccination rates not only in the U.K. but also in the U.S. and Ireland, as well as a corresponding increase in measles and mumps infections that resulted in serious illnesses and deaths.

Below is an informative strip that covers some of Wakefield's nefarious actions (including a couple that I didn't mention) as well as a number of other myths surrounding vaccines.
...

I'd also recommend the last episode from the Showtime series "Penn and Teller: BS!" (the actual title spells out BS and they do profusely use profanity so be forewarned) which provides an excellent takedown of the whole childhood vaccinations are linked to autism... uh, BS.

I presume your cartoons were an attempt to make light of all the deaths that are happening. If you only have cartoons as a response, I can only presume you are joking.

Anyhow, I cannot readily type out responses to so much convoluted information you provided. I did give some stuff you can research on Wakefield. The obvious thing in the study (see the response to Eider) is there is no statement to avoid the vaccines. There only is a suggestion that a study be done to see if there is connection between the MMR shots (especially when they had Thimerosol) and the ailments he described.

There also was a whistleblower within the CDC, NIH or FDA (I forget which one at the moment) that provided a father some access to studies or letters that showed a coverup of the connections of the MMR with autism. This is a bit by memory but this is the basic gist of things. If you discount all facts, then you are left with the conclusions you have made. Anyhow, check the testimony of Wakefield on this stuff before you spout more of the one-sided view that you looked at. It may not change anything you believe, but at least you would see what it is. Especially, do you see anything in the original study that said that MMR shots were found to cause the ailments?

[mikewhitney]

That's rubbish.
...just not true. Where did you dig that up?

People too frightened to get the Covid jab because they've been scared by anti-vax rubbish are not anti-vaxxers...... it's the folks spinning the pseudo science at them who are those.

1 in 3 folks in the US have been scared enough to refuse the vaccinations, they have heard that they could very possibly die from blood clots, etc.
Scared off by quacks, I think.
In the UK 90% of adults over 40yrs have received the vaccinations...... at the %s suggested by the anti-vaxxers there would have been vax-deaths in every street here...... there are not.
Being to frightened to take the jab doesn't make you an anti-vaxxer. Spreading the junk-science probably does!

And where is your proof that people did not get blood clots or neurological problems from the covid shots?

How many of the medical doctors have you heard regarding their patients injured by the covid shots? How many of the people killed by the covid shots have you talked to?

How come you have no concerns about the possible dangers of the experimental covid shots? How can you know the long term safety of them when they have only been tested for 6-8 months?

[eider]

We rightly start with Proverbs 18:17 "The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him."

I can probably get to other stuff you questioned. But I wanted to point out the flaw of what you have done with info about Wakefield.

Instead of doing research, you picked up rotten fruit from the ground -- fruit that tends to make you sick instead of helping anything.

The starting point is the study itself. It is seen in "retracted" form here
https://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-paper.pdf

Wakefield was attacked for saying

The data shows parents who reported that the problems happened with the MMR shot. This, however, for Wakefield, was only the reported information which he had logged in the study. His findings are still valid apart from any mention of MMR. His findings are about imflammatory bowels -- something like that. The statement I quoted just reflects an area that could be investigated for causation. It is hardly an unreasonable suggestion. The task simply was not part of his study and he could not make a conclusion about it.

This is science. It was not a recommendation to stop giving vaccinations. Yet, people took action as if he told people vaccinations were harmful.

You can see this short segment: Dr. Wakefield, did your research prove that the MMR causes autism?
youtube.com/watch?v=DHj4GoMAJxQ

You can see more of the discussion and more links at https://vaxxedthemovie.com/andrew-wakefield-biography/

He gives a defense against every accusation -- including all that Brian Deer accused him of . I still think the original study is simple enough evidence that he did nothing wrong.

I did not see a description of the court hearings where Wakefield and another doctor were on trial. As I remember, the other doctor was able to afford a proper defense and therefore was not found guilty of the same charge(s).

Another thing I didn't find yet... a later study (maybe 10 years later) came to the same conclusions about the gut and autism as Wakefield found -- I am doing this by memory too. Whatever exactly the study is, it was a confirmation of what Wakefield found.

For the most part you seem more inclined to hear the evidence.

Nope.
Wakefield's claims were closely investigated and once his spin was extracted there was no evidence remaining. He was proved to be a quack.

Proverbs can't help you there

[mikewhitney]

Hi Mike....
And 'No'.... You have not acknowledged the fact the the 800+ deaths reported in that article were NOT attributable to Covid vaccinations with any evidence, hence that Warning-Forewood.

It's just as I wrote to Mountain Man, if any of your claims, or those of the anti-vaxxers are true, then people would be dying here around where I live. I would KNOW of some victims....... but there aren't any, Mike. Your maths calculations amount to what I call 'spin'... they might bamboozle some folks, but over here we have a vaccinated population... alive, kicking.... QED.

I would further add to my earlier response ...

You have not provided autopsy results from independent scientist/examiners to show that these deaths were not related to the experimental shots. This is an experimental trial period which demands that deaths can be caused by unexpected side-effects of these new technologies. People have become the animal studies for testing the effects of these technologies. Plus, we have no quality history of the manufacturing process for these. Nor, as I understand things, have any studies been done on how the covid shots interact with different organs of the body.

If you have evidence that these deaths are not normally the effect of the experimental shots, please provide links to those.