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Book Plunge: God and the Gay Christian

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I think I just come at this from a totally different perspective.

    I think there's a disconnect in how some of us define sexuality. So, for instance, I think some people see homosexuality as something some people just are. Almost as a brute fact. As I understand the literature, though, this is actually a recent development. The ancient world didn't see distinctions like homosexuality or heterosexuality. Sex is something you may have desired, or that you physically did, but you did not define yourself by. I think there's merit to this way of thinking of sexuality.

    A related issue is that I think most people in the 21st century (Christians and non) believe that we all are born and must live most of our lives psychologically stuck certain ways...either as a normative blessing, or as a psychological sort of illness. "I am an introvert, and I always will be an introvert", or "I suffer from depression, and that is just my lot in life", or "even if I never drink again, I will always be an alcoholic", or "If I desire a polyamorous lifestyle, it must be because I was born that way, and there's no changing that". And again, I don't personally believe that. I believe that through Christ all things are possible, and that as new creations we do have the ability to renew our minds and be transformed. I don't think it's easy, but I certainly don't think it's impossible. In fact, I personally know it's not impossible. And, again, even the secular literature on this subject seems to support this.

    Unfortunately, I think even broaching the subject sorta gets on a lot of people's nerves, or makes them angry. It's not a popular assertion, and that's because people have either settled with the soft sciences that supports the "I was just born this way" thinking, or have struggled with the issue on a very real and very personal level, and have experienced very real frustration and agony over it, and have come to the conclusion that there's nothing in it.

    I don't know. I'm not making an argument either way. Just sort of thinking out loud and throwing it out there. Probably not the best forum to debate the topic, and sorry for derailing the main OP.
    Some personality and behavioral patterns can change. Indeed, people can do a number of things with their life, and break the chains of bad habits. Sadly this isn't always the case when it comes to things like addiction, mental-health, eating disorders, mood disorders, sexual preferences, etc. When you have a personality that enables you to accomplish great things in your life, it can sometimes work against you in others areas. I'm a very independent person that doesn't like to be bossed around, and that makes relationships with women difficult - to the point that I've decided not to do anymore live-in relationships.

    Does it suck? Yeah. But I know that if I changed my way of doing things to a degree that it would rid me of those issues, I wouldn't be myself anymore, and would be something I'd probably never want to be if I saw that future. So I'll just stick with the little guy on my shoulder that's gotten me this far.

    I see homosexuals as the same. There's nothing wrong with loving somebody of the same sex. The only thing wrong with it is that their sexual preferences are in conflict with written ethics that predates modern moral philosophy, secular or religious.
    Last edited by Sea of red; 01-04-2016, 11:05 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      That really isn't the case, and there is a legit methodology to why Christians seemingly accept some of the Old Testament law while ignoring other bits. It's pretty well explained in Bible, especially in Paul's epistles. You've been on this forum for a very long time though, and I'm certain you've read the explanation at some point in your stay here. Either you have terrible memory, or you simply pick and choose what you want to accept and what you want to ignore.
      Here's what I don't get: if homosexuality is still a sin, then why aren't Christians executing them like the OT commands? I'm sure there's an apologetic but I think we both know that it's because even Christians find that part of the law to be barbaric; plus they don't want to spend the rest of their lives in state prison.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
        Here's what I don't get: if homosexuality is still a sin, then why aren't Christians executing them like the OT commands? I'm sure there's an apologetic but I think we both know that it's because even Christians find that part of the law to be barbaric; plus they don't want to spend the rest of their lives in state prison.
        Because execution was part of the civil Law for Hebrews specially living in Israel under a theocratic, and sovereign kingdom. The ability to enact capital civil punishment was pretty much gone by the time of Jesus under Roman rule. It wasn't legal for Jews to keep many of their own civil commandments, never mind impose them on Gentile converts. But that's really beside the point. Jesus made it clear throughout his ministry that the focus of the law was the heart of the law. The moral teachings. So he taught things like, Matthew 5:38-39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. And he said radical things like John 8:7, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” Furthermore, when Christ took on and then died for our sin, and when he was raised and glorified three days later, he started an administration of grace, and for the first time the Holy Spirit was made available to all who believe in him.

        Again, all of this is in the New Testament. In the Epistles and the Gospel letters. This is not an apologetic made up after the fact. Contrary to popular opinion, Christians really aren't just making things up as we go along. It's right there in black and white.

        And on a personal level, there are so many things I wish the Bible said nothing about. As a modern, 21st century, 40 year old American punk rocker with a ton of very open and "progressive" friends, the things the Bible says about subjects like homosexuality, about abstinence, about drunkenness, about doing good to my enemies...about all sorts of things....I wish it was mute on. I really do care about, and get along very well with my LGBT friends, acquaintances, and family members. And being associated with the scene as I am, I have quite a few of them. But I won't compromise what I believe to be the truth for the ever changing whims of popular opinion on these subjects. As much as I may find them uncomfortable, or frustrating, I believe that there are objective morals and values, and that those morals and values are found in our creator. And also contrary to popular belief, I (and many other Christians) did not come to that belief through blind faith, but by diligently searching for truth, and I intend to continue to do so for the rest of my life.
        Last edited by Adrift; 01-05-2016, 12:17 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
          Don't you find that just a little suspicious? A vision that conveniently removes the dietary laws that Jews kept for their entire history, and will help make Christian theology more attractive to gentiles, is just a little bit suspect to me; in fact it sounds like it's by design.
          Why would it be suspicious considering the fact that Christ had just fulfilled the Law?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • #35
            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
            I guess it depends on whether you follow Jesus or Paul. Jesus said he was not changing the law at all, Paul said otherwise.
            Your exegesis skills, much like Michael Goulder's, seem to be non-existent.

            Michael Goulder tried to resurrect F.C. Baur's dead argument. The relationship between Jesus (and Petrine Christianity) and Paul (and Pauline Christianity) is much, much different than Baur's model.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Nah, there's no discrepancy between the two. In fact Paul's theology is based on Jesus' claim to have fulfilled the law. I'm certain you heard about that too, but cherrypickers gotta cherry pick.
              What does " fulfilled the law" mean? If I obey the speed limit, am I fulfilling the law? Exactly what did Jesus do to fulfill the law?

              If Jesus fulfilled the law, why do we still have Biblical laws? Did he only fulfill some laws, but not others?

              Bonus question; how do you fulfill a prophet? Apparently Jesus did that too.

              Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

              I ask, because I understand that passage to be referring to parts of the Hebrew Bible. Jesus claimed to fulfill the prophecies in the scripture know as the Law and in the scripture known as the Prophets. Which is quite different to Jesus saying he fulfilled the law. Quite the reverse; he states he is not abolishing what is written in there, with the implication that the commandments therein will not be changed.
              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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              • #37
                Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                What does " fulfilled the law" mean? If I obey the speed limit, am I fulfilling the law? Exactly what did Jesus do to fulfill the law?
                To fulfill the Law is to complete and transcend it. Read Romans 10:4.

                If Jesus fulfilled the law, why do we still have Biblical laws? Did he only fulfill some laws, but not others?
                The Law is still in full effect to those who've yet to make Jesus Lord. You, Pixie, are still under the Law. Unless you can fulfill the Law perfectly, you cannot inherit eternal life. Here's a clue...you can't fulfill the Law perfectly (not that you're even trying). Thankfully Jesus provided a way out of that little conundrum. Jesus was able to fulfill it perfectly, and those who make him Lord share in his righteousness and are saved.

                Bonus question; how do you fulfill a prophet? Apparently Jesus did that too.

                Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

                I ask, because I understand that passage to be referring to parts of the Hebrew Bible. Jesus claimed to fulfill the prophecies in the scripture know as the Law and in the scripture known as the Prophets. Which is quite different to Jesus saying he fulfilled the law. Quite the reverse; he states he is not abolishing what is written in there, with the implication that the commandments therein will not be changed.
                Source: The Gospel According to Matthew: An Introduction and Commentary by R. T. France

                The law and the prophets is a regular Jewish name for the entire Old Testament (cf. 7:12; 22:40; Acts 24:14; 28:23; Rom. 3:21) and occurs again in 11:13, with the verb 'prophesied'. So the whole Old Testament, the law as well as the prophets, pointed forward to what Jesus has now brought into being. His ministry brings them to full measure (cf. pleroo in 23:32), by supplying the final revelation of the will of God (see Jeremias, NTT, pp. 84-85). In the background may be the Jewish expectation (based on, e.g., Is. 2:3; Je. 31:31ff.) that the Messiah's role would include the definitive exposition of the law, sometimes amounting virtually to the promulgation of a new law, (see Davies, pp. 183-190). This complex of ideas then lies behind plerosai: Jesus is bringing that to which the Old Testament looked forward; his teaching will transcend the Old Testament revelation, but, far from abolishing it, is itself its intended culmination.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Hey man, look, I'm going to be real with you. I'm not at all interested in getting into a pointless back and forth on this subject with you (of all people). This is Christianity 101 stuff. Stuff that you could have easily found on your own through, you know, actually reading the Bible, or picking up a decent commentary. Heck, you should have figured this stuff out in your first year on Theologyweb. The fact that you came into this thread, not asking questions, but laying down your judgement on Christians, and dictating to us how you think we come to our conclusions about what parts of the Bible to "pick or choose" tells me that you're not in any way, shape, or form interested in a forthright discussion. If you were an honest inquirer, I'd spend all the time in the world discussing these things with you, but I don't believe you are.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  I guess it depends on whether you follow Jesus or Paul. Jesus said he was not changing the law at all, Paul said otherwise.
                  Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  What does " fulfilled the law" mean? If I obey the speed limit, am I fulfilling the law? Exactly what did Jesus do to fulfill the law?

                  If Jesus fulfilled the law, why do we still have Biblical laws? Did he only fulfill some laws, but not others?

                  Bonus question; how do you fulfill a prophet? Apparently Jesus did that too.

                  Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

                  I ask, because I understand that passage to be referring to parts of the Hebrew Bible. Jesus claimed to fulfill the prophecies in the scripture know as the Law and in the scripture known as the Prophets. Which is quite different to Jesus saying he fulfilled the law. Quite the reverse; he states he is not abolishing what is written in there, with the implication that the commandments therein will not be changed.
                  Even many Christians are confused on this. Little surprise that you are. Others here have tried to explain what is going on between Christ and the Law.

                  Now the Law has not been down away. Yet the Law has been superseded. Both things are understood by Christians to be true.

                  The issue is works of merit and grace, that is unmerited favor. By merit the whole human race is condemned. By grace the whole human race has the opportunity to know God.

                  I had amend your one post. I believe in that post you had asked something that is important to understand.

                  Christ in his life time and ministry before the cross taught according to the Law. The accounts Matthew, Mark and Luke primarily cover this. John's account covers primarily what the earlier witten accounts did not. Paul's writings harmonized the two teachings from Christ. The meaning of the Law that Christ taught and what is in accord with Christ's commandments which are other than the Law. The latter other than the Law which John wrote mostly about.

                  "Cursed [be] he that confirmeth not [all] the words of this law to do them." -- Deuteronomy 27:26 which the Apostle Paul cites in his letter to Galatians church.

                  Jesus argued, ". . . For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:18-20.

                  The Apostle Paul to the Galatians wrote, ". . . Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21.

                  To the Ephesian church wrote, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and God." -- Ephesians 5:5.

                  To the Corinthians church, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

                  James wrote, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." -- James 2:10.

                  And in the Revelation we read, ". . . But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

                  So the Apostle Paul explains in a number of places, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." -- Romans 3:19.
                  ". . . Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." -- 1 Timothy 1:9-11.
                  ". . . Do we then make void the law through faith? [God] forbid [it]: yea, we establish the law." -- Romans 3:31.

                  John the Apostle wrote, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." -- 1 John 3:4.

                  Paul wrote, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression." -- Romans 4:15.
                  And ". . . if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." -- Galatians 5:18.
                  And "For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." -- Romans 10:4.
                  And ". . . for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." -- Galatians 2:31.

                  Now the prophet Jeremiah writes, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant . . . I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. . . . for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- Jeremiah 31:31-34.

                  The writer to the Hebrews wrote, "For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." -- Hebrews 8:7.

                  Isaiah the prophet wrote, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." -- Isaiah 53:6.

                  The claim of the resurrection is that God's Christ really did proved for our acceptance with God. Which the Law could not do.
                  Last edited by 37818; 01-05-2016, 10:13 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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