Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Book Plunge: Homosexuality and the Bible --- 2 Views

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Book Plunge: Homosexuality and the Bible --- 2 Views

    My thoughts on this debate in book form?

    The link can be found here.

    The text is as follows:

    Dan Via and Robert Gagnon come together in this book to discuss the view of the Bible on homosexuality. Via I have not known of prior to this, but I did know of Gagnon and I have to say that in this area, Gagnon is a force to be reckoned with. There is a reason people like Matthew Vines do not want to debate Robert Gagnon. Thus, when I saw that he was involved in a book debate on the topic of homosexuality and since I'm doing a research project on that in Romans 1 now, I thought this would be an excellent one to go through.

    Unfortunately, if there's a criticism I have of this, it's that it is way too short. The book could be read in a few hours which I found troublesome. This is a serious topic and it deserves more time in the press than something this short. In fact, Gagnon had to restrict a lot of what he wrote because it was too long and so throughout his essay, he links to notes on his web site where readers can go to find a fuller treatment. I would have recommended that while Gagnon could have written something too long that Via would be asked to give a more engaging essay of greater length rather than just have Gagnon cut his. There are plenty of things that could have been said.

    Much of Via's arguments are exactly what you would expect along the lines of what was going on in Sodom and matters of that sort. Gagnon's responses thoroughly show the weaknesses, though not at times as much as one would like in the book format and again, this is because Gagnon has a fuller treatment on the issue on his web site. Perhaps it would have also helped to have had other readers who were commentators on this debate. It might have even been better to have Via and Gagnon discuss separately the major Biblical passages on the topic in separate chapters.

    This is also an issue the church needs to pay attention to as it has become the shibboleth of the day. Increasingly for Christians, it will become a major issue as many of our young people who are deciding what truth is more based on their feelings and experience than reason and Scripture are being thoroughly confused on all matters relating to sexuality. Sadly, few of them will pick up a massive tome like Gagnon's and go through it and unfortunately, few of them will probably go to his web site to look at the in-depth research that he has done. It's sad to think that we live in the information age but people today want all the information catered to them and are not interested in doing any work.

    While short, I must say that it is good to see Gagnon demolish the opposition in this one. Those who are wanting to see a debate on the topic in book form can start here and hopefully more will follow and as this increasingly becomes more of an issue, I am sure that more will follow. I am also thankful that we have as astute a scholar as Gagnon on our side in this.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Interesting, Nick.

    Thanks
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      I really am curious how anyone can make a case about the Bible not condemning homosexual behavior. I think it's pretty obvious it does.

      But then again, eisegesis knows no bounds!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by psstein View Post
        I really am curious how anyone can make a case about the Bible not condemning homosexual behavior. I think it's pretty obvious it does.

        But then again, eisegesis knows no bounds!
        It usually comes back, in my experience, to "Jesus was all about forgiveness and He never condemned it", and/or "Paul was speaking totally on his own on the subject."
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          It usually comes back, in my experience, to "Jesus was all about forgiveness and He never condemned it", and/or "Paul was speaking totally on his own on the subject."
          I think it tends to come down to a different point, although yours does apply at times. I call it the "They was dumb, we is smart!" stance. Generally, they think people from the past were monumentally dumber than today, and just by existing now they are automatically more intelligent than anyone who lived long ago.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by psstein View Post
            I really am curious how anyone can make a case about the Bible not condemning homosexual behavior. I think it's pretty obvious it does.

            But then again, eisegesis knows no bounds!
            The standard lines are that...Paul was really talking about homosexuality as it related to cult prostitution, or Paul was really talking about pederasty, or the the Old Testament was also really referring to sex acts related to pagan worship, or the Old Testament law isn't applicable to Christians (so whatever it has to say about moral issues can be disregarded), or...Paul is not Jesus, and since Jesus never brought it up (and that he might have even approved it somehow with his talk about eunuchs) then it's all good, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't really about homosexuality (which is probably the only case they can legitimately make). Lots of denial, and hanging on fringe opinions about the subject. The vast majority of scholars (critical scholars even) have agreed that the Bible has a very dim view of homosexuality.

            Comment


            • #7
              A lot if it is also emotionally based. (I met someone who was a homosexual and he seemed like such a good guy and he said he loves Jesus.)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                It usually comes back, in my experience, to "Jesus was all about forgiveness and He never condemned it", and/or "Paul was speaking totally on his own on the subject."
                Which either a) shows the shallowness of American Christianity or b) shows that people really don't know very much about Paul's theology.

                Anybody with a rudimentary understanding of the NT knows that Jesus is decidedly not "all about forgiveness."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  The standard lines are that...Paul was really talking about homosexuality as it related to cult prostitution, or Paul was really talking about pederasty, or the the Old Testament was also really referring to sex acts related to pagan worship, or the Old Testament law isn't applicable to Christians (so whatever it has to say about moral issues can be disregarded), or...Paul is not Jesus, and since Jesus never brought it up (and that he might have even approved it somehow with his talk about eunuchs) then it's all good, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't really about homosexuality (which is probably the only case they can legitimately make). Lots of denial, and hanging on fringe opinions about the subject. The vast majority of scholars (critical scholars even) have agreed that the Bible has a very dim view of homosexuality.
                  Jesus' discussion of eunuchs revolves around those who voluntarily become them or forsake marriage for the sake of the kingdom.

                  The OT law is a non-sequitur, Paul is pretty clear about it.

                  By the way, guys, this topic introduced me to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. I'd never looked at it in detail before, but it's the handbook of fundy atheism.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by psstein View Post
                    Jesus' discussion of eunuchs revolves around those who voluntarily become them or forsake marriage for the sake of the kingdom.
                    Of course. Eisegetes gonna eisegete though. However, RT France points out in his commentary on Matthew that "made themselves eunuchs" is not to be taken literally. Craig Keener points out in his Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on Matthew that Jewish people were horrified of castration. The term "eunuch" could function as an insult, and may have been directed towards Jesus for his celibacy.

                    The OT law is a non-sequitur, Paul is pretty clear about it.
                    Well, I agree for the most part. Paul is clear that we are no longer under the curse of the law (and I take that to be mostly in reference to ceremonial and civil law) but passages like Romans 2:15 tell us that moral law is written upon the heart, and as both Jesus and Paul highlight, the law now hangs upon the two commandments "love God and love your neighbor" (Matt. 22:37–40, Romans 13:8–10).

                    By the way, guys, this topic introduced me to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. I'd never looked at it in detail before, but it's the handbook of fundy atheism.
                    Yeah. Its pretty goofy. Not worth spending much time on.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by psstein View Post
                      The OT law is a non-sequitur, Paul is pretty clear about it.
                      Did you mean Paul is pretty clear about OT law not applying anymore, or did you mean Paul is pretty clear about homosexual acts being sin so it doesn't matter whether OT law applies?
                      Last edited by Celebrian; 12-28-2015, 11:28 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Celebrian View Post
                        Did you mean Paul is pretty clear about OT law not applying anymore, or did you mean Paul is pretty clear about homosexual acts being sin so it doesn't matter whether OT law applies?
                        Well, both. Paul believes that a new covenant has been formed, but Paul is also explicit as to homosexual acts being sinful.

                        Now, personally, if I'm trying to convince someone else, I'd probably argue from natural law, but that's just me.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by psstein View Post
                          Which either a) shows the shallowness of American Christianity or b) shows that people really don't know very much about Paul's theology.
                          About 20 years ago, in a Church I pastored, there was a group of younger adults who had grown up in Church, but I noticed a phrase they commonly used.... "I know the Bible says X, but....."

                          Their willingness to actively disregard God's Word, knowing full well what it says, greatly concerned me.

                          Anybody with a rudimentary understanding of the NT knows that Jesus is decidedly not "all about forgiveness."
                          Yeah, they, like a lot of our atheists here, flavor Jesus however they wish to support their lifestyle or agenda.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment

                          Related Threads

                          Collapse

                          Topics Statistics Last Post
                          Started by Apologiaphoenix, 04-15-2024, 09:22 PM
                          0 responses
                          15 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                          Started by Apologiaphoenix, 04-09-2024, 09:39 AM
                          22 responses
                          141 views
                          1 like
                          Last Post Cerebrum123  
                          Started by Apologiaphoenix, 04-08-2024, 02:50 PM
                          0 responses
                          13 views
                          1 like
                          Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                          Started by Apologiaphoenix, 04-08-2024, 02:50 PM
                          0 responses
                          4 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                          Started by Apologiaphoenix, 04-05-2024, 10:13 PM
                          0 responses
                          28 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                          Working...
                          X