Why is Bruce an Exception?

[Jedidiah]

. . . snip . . .I would not be surprised if, in the not too distant future, he has a REAL "what have I done" moment. . . . snip . . .

As has happened to several of the past victims.

[jpholding]

fm, maybe you forgot, or ran out of time, but I wanted to know, so I feel I should ask again. You had said:

If some people find that the presence of their male genitalia and facial hair causes them to feel constant distress, they understandably might reason that having surgery or taking hormones to remove the sources of distress would end the distress.

I asked in turn:

"Yes, I've heard of similar stories regarding limbs. But if this is so, then only half the notion is supported. Removal is one step. Adding something else (e.g., in the case you describe, female organs) is another."

And in this particular case, was Jenner's unease simply with his male organs, as in this example? Or was there more to it?

[Cow Poke]

See, here's why my analogy is better, fm....

All the liberals can fawn and fuss and speak of the courage and how free Bruce is as a woman, but there are a lot of us who still remember him on the Wheaties box, and know that he still has male chromosomes. That didn't change. He was born a male, and will die a male. I saw a video of him putting on makeup, and he looked in the mirror and looked surprised and said, "what have I done". I would not be surprised if, in the not too distant future, he has a REAL "what have I done" moment.

And the inmates, who are running the asylum, are pretending he's a woman, knowing full well he's a man.

It's Bruce, fm. You guys can pretend all you want, but he's still "he".

[Cow Poke]

A better analogy would involve the opposite-

Nope. He's still a man.



Wait... don't tell me.... you're gonna try to become a girl?!?!?!?!

[fm93]

Mass Media and Liberaldom has decided to shout "how beautiful are your clothes" to the Naked Emperor.

A better analogy would involve the opposite--you're wearing a layer of uncomfortable clothes (a full-body costume of a cartoon sports mascot, for instance) that's somehow become jammed where the costume head attaches to the costume body, so you can't take them off. You feel almost constant discomfort due to the itchy fabric and hot, humid conditions inside the costume, and everyone who notices you sees you only as a giant grinning cartoon character, while you know that your external appearance doesn't match your internal sense of self. The notion of being trapped forever inside a full-body costume leads you to feel distress. You could undergo therapy to try to convince your mind that you are literally that mascot, but that doesn't work. Finally, someone manages to free up the jammed part, allowing you to step out of the costume and physically reveal your internal self.

[fm93]

Should we participate in a cultural delusion?

The link can be found here.

The text is as follows:

What do you do when a man's very being says he's a woman? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

My wife shared on her Facebook a meme of some soldiers going to say they were going to congratulate Bruce Jenner for his courage, obviously said in sarcasm. Some of her friends from high school showed up to try to correct on her on this point which naturally means that her apologist husband has to go to work. I spent some time telling one that Bruce is still a man and why should we think otherwise? The reply I got was that "her" very being said "she" was a woman. Well that's interesting. What about these other cases then?

Here for instance is Jerusalem Syndrome.

In this case, someone goes to Jerusalem who has otherwise been a normal person, and then believes themselves to be a biblical figure, like Jesus, Samson, or Mary.

If we are loving to such people, should we treat them like they are such figures, or should we seek to get them the help they need even though their very being says they are such figures?

Here is Cotard Delusion. The person with this delusion is convinced that they are dead and often have evidence from their own experience to back that! Their very being again tells them they're dead. Are we loving to them if we treat them like they're dead?

Here is Capgras Syndrome. In this, the person thinks their loved one has been replaced by a double or impostor. Is the loving thing to do agree with them even though they are mentally convinced of this?

Fregoli Delusion:
In this case, the person thinks that multiple people are really one or two persons in disguise. Is it loving to go along with this belief?

Apotemnophilia. In this case, the person thinks they should amputate healthy parts of their body. Is the loving thing to do to rush this person off to see a surgeon?

After writing that, I found more delusions and I'm sure there are still more out there.

Here is Truman Show Delusion. If you've ever seen the movie, that's what it's like. The person thinks they're living in a reality show with cameras and actors all around them.

There is also even a video game delusion. In this, the person, yes, thinks that they are in a video game. One case of this involved stealing a more powerful car at gunpoint so someone could get bonus points.

There is also clinical lycanthropy. In this case, the person believes that they have turned into a werewolf.

We recognize each of these as delusions and we do so by looking at reality. Why not do the same in the case of Bruce?

Because I do not intend to participate in the delusion, I will still be referring to Bruce as Bruce. I will still be using the masculine pronouns in description. I have no desire whatsoever to join the Cult of Caitlyn.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

The key difference here is that those people believe they're literally and physically Biblical figures/video game characters/werewolves, whereas Bruce Jenner was fully aware that he wasn't physically a woman. That fact alone means that this doesn't qualify as a delusion. Here, Jenner experienced a conflict between what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his body, and what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his mind. That conflict--that one simply is unable to feel "at home" in the body, or that the presence of male body parts causes one to feel distress--drives people like Jenner to seek transitioning hormones and/or surgery to alleviate the distress.

And on that note...if some transgender people ask to be called by a different name and pronouns because it helps alleviate the distress that they feel, what's wrong with just going with that? Quite a few schoolchildren, for instance, ask to be called different names simply because they don't like their birth name, and teachers generally do so out of common courtesy. "I don't like the sound of my birth name" is a much flimsier reason, but calling them a different name doesn't harm anyone.

To be clear, I don't think that entails that all transgender people should undergo reassignment surgery (as it's a difficult step to take, and some people end up regretting it), but simply referring to them by the name that they wish to be called hardly has to lead to that, and by itself it seems fairly innocuous.

[Cow Poke]

Mass Media and Liberaldom has decided to shout "how beautiful are your clothes" to the Naked Emperor.

And, yes, a true friend would clue the Emperor in that he's been fooled into thinking he's dressed in his finest.

[rogue06]

I figure that he can call himself what he wants but I will still refer to him as "he" because he is still a male.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Should we participate in a cultural delusion?

The link can be found here.

The text is as follows:

What do you do when a man's very being says he's a woman? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

My wife shared on her Facebook a meme of some soldiers going to say they were going to congratulate Bruce Jenner for his courage, obviously said in sarcasm. Some of her friends from high school showed up to try to correct on her on this point which naturally means that her apologist husband has to go to work. I spent some time telling one that Bruce is still a man and why should we think otherwise? The reply I got was that "her" very being said "she" was a woman. Well that's interesting. What about these other cases then?

Here for instance is Jerusalem Syndrome.

In this case, someone goes to Jerusalem who has otherwise been a normal person, and then believes themselves to be a biblical figure, like Jesus, Samson, or Mary.

If we are loving to such people, should we treat them like they are such figures, or should we seek to get them the help they need even though their very being says they are such figures?

Here is Cotard Delusion. The person with this delusion is convinced that they are dead and often have evidence from their own experience to back that! Their very being again tells them they're dead. Are we loving to them if we treat them like they're dead?

Here is Capgras Syndrome. In this, the person thinks their loved one has been replaced by a double or impostor. Is the loving thing to do agree with them even though they are mentally convinced of this?

Fregoli Delusion:
In this case, the person thinks that multiple people are really one or two persons in disguise. Is it loving to go along with this belief?

Apotemnophilia. In this case, the person thinks they should amputate healthy parts of their body. Is the loving thing to do to rush this person off to see a surgeon?

After writing that, I found more delusions and I'm sure there are still more out there.

Here is Truman Show Delusion. If you've ever seen the movie, that's what it's like. The person thinks they're living in a reality show with cameras and actors all around them.

There is also even a video game delusion. In this, the person, yes, thinks that they are in a video game. One case of this involved stealing a more powerful car at gunpoint so someone could get bonus points.

There is also clinical lycanthropy. In this case, the person believes that they have turned into a werewolf.

We recognize each of these as delusions and we do so by looking at reality. Why not do the same in the case of Bruce?

Because I do not intend to participate in the delusion, I will still be referring to Bruce as Bruce. I will still be using the masculine pronouns in description. I have no desire whatsoever to join the Cult of Caitlyn.

In Christ,
Nick Peters