Why is Bruce an Exception?

[Adrift]

And subsequently see no need to continue arguing about a mere semantic point.

It wasn't a mere semantic point when you made it though.

You presented reasons as to why you believe there's a significant spiritual aspect, but you didn't present any reasons as to why you don't believe there's a significant biological aspect.

You just got done complaining that you couldn't find anything by me concerning why I believe that this issue is primarily a spiritual one, now you're switching back to why I don't think it's a biological one? I've been covering why I don't believe it's primarily a biological issue.

Look, I'm not playing this game anymore. If you want to play "who can repeat their arguments the longest", I'm not game. You're better than this.

You drew a parallel to the Markan demoniac* who engaged in self-maiming, but there are quite a few Christians who struggle with gender identity (Jenner, in fact, is a professed Christian), and I have always heard it said that Christians cannot be possessed, as they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now, you concede that not all people with such identity issues may be possessed, but that would still entail spiritual entities exerting quite a significant extent of power over a person. Does not 1 Corinthians 10:13 say that God won't let believers be tempted beyond their ability?

Besides, the demoniac in Mark is depicted as actively self-inflicting pain (hence the mention that he was "crying out"), whereas transgender people who seek surgery are trying to free themselves from pain.

I don't care if Jenner professes Christ, he's certainly not living it right now. Some Christians do believe that Christians can be possessed (I don't, but some do), and 1 Cor 10:13 isn't any sort of guarantee at all that a Christian won't be demonized or caught up in spiritual warfare. I think you know that though, because citing that verse is about the silliest rebuttal I've seen you make so far.

*You said this was in Mark 9, but the case there is of a boy who throws himself into fire. I'm guessing you meant Mark 5?

Yeah. Thanks.

[fm93]

Right, you already did that in your previous posts.

And subsequently see no need to continue arguing about a mere semantic point.

Pretty much the entirety of the post (and a number of previous posts) concerned the spiritual issue. If you were incapable of grasping from that post why I believe that the issue is primarily spiritual rather than biological, then there's probably nothing more I can add here.

You presented reasons as to why you believe there's a significant spiritual aspect, but you didn't present any reasons as to why you don't believe there's a significant biological aspect. You drew a parallel to the Markan demoniac* who engaged in self-maiming, but there are quite a few Christians who struggle with gender identity (Jenner, in fact, is a professed Christian), and I have always heard it said that Christians cannot be possessed, as they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now, you concede that not all people with such identity issues may be possessed, but that would still entail spiritual entities exerting quite a significant extent of power over a person. Does not 1 Corinthians 10:13 say that God won't let believers be tempted beyond their ability?

Besides, the demoniac in Mark is depicted as actively self-inflicting pain (hence the mention that he was "crying out"), whereas transgender people who seek surgery are trying to free themselves from pain.



*You said this was in Mark 9, but the case there is of a boy who throws himself into fire. I'm guessing you meant Mark 5?

[Bill the Cat]

The hypocrisy is amazing - that Bruce would not just try to become 'female', but a () beauty queen. A real woman is beautiful on the inside, but this 60 year old grandfather had to go for the "sexy young thang" look, fixated on the outward appearance. Yet another reason this is an exercise in total futility.

He fits in with the circus that is the Kardashian/Jenner family.

[Adrift]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Some people who are intersex (have both male and female organs and/or other traits, or neither--basically, can't really be classified as one or the other) nevertheless report identifying with a specific gender. And really, we know brains can develop exceptionally differently in various individuals in terms of intelligence, modes of feeling (i.e some are remarkably empathetic, some are sociopathic), even ways of sensing (some people have synesthesia and see colors when they hear sounds), regardless of body structure. What's to stop a brain from developing in a manner more typical of female brains than male brains?

Transgender people are not intersex, and the data shows that the structure of male to female transsexuals (before hormone therapy) does "not support the notion [that they] are feminized". fMRI scans of transsex people's brains are far from conclusive, and correlatory evidence found in fMRI research itself is subject to much criticism. In any event, even if fMRI scans did indicicate incontertible evidence that a transexual person's brain is maldeveloped, neuroplasticians like Jeffrey Schwartz have demonstrated that the mind can correct the brain's wiring as demonstrated in subjects suffering from OCD and victims of stroke. I predict that, like the fruitless, and largely inconclusive search for a biological cause for homosexuality in the gay rights movement, eventually the trans-rights movement will accept that there is no significant biological cause for transexuality, but by that time it won't matter because they'll have accomplished their goal of normalizing it in the eyes of the public.

I'm well aware of the power of words, but it just seems to me that a name isn't something worth objecting to.

I really don't want to get into semantics about what exactly a delusion is.

Right, you already did that in your previous posts.

Oh. I did see that one, but I'm not sure which part is supposed to show that it's primarily a spiritual issue. I'm guessing it was this:

When your identity is so distorted, so out of whack that you are convinced that your only hope of escape is to radically alter and maim the body, the temple, that God gave you, then there's something far more sinister going on.

...but why, exactly, should we conclude that the issue is primarily spiritual rather than biological?

Pretty much the entirety of the post (and a number of previous posts) concerned the spiritual issue. If you were incapable of grasping from that post why I believe that the issue is primarily spiritual rather than biological, then there's probably nothing more I can add here.

[fm93]

Because gender is determined by sex, and I don't think there's evidence good enough to think otherwise.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Some people who are intersex (have both male and female organs and/or other traits, or neither--basically, can't really be classified as one or the other) nevertheless report identifying with a specific gender. And really, we know brains can develop exceptionally differently in various individuals in terms of intelligence, modes of feeling (i.e some are remarkably empathetic, some are sociopathic), even ways of sensing (some people have synesthesia and see colors when they hear sounds), regardless of body structure. What's to stop a brain from developing in a manner more typical of female brains than male brains?

I disagree. Words have a powerful effect on people. You apparently do think it's significant, otherwise you wouldn't be protesting.

I'm well aware of the power of words, but it just seems to me that a name isn't something worth objecting to.

This was covered in your thread as well. What may appear to treat the symptoms does not (in a manner of speaking) cure the disease. Furthermore, rather than help the one afflicted by gender dysphoria it does more harm by encouraging the delusion.

I really don't want to get into semantics about what exactly a delusion is.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post205859

Oh. I did see that one, but I'm not sure which part is supposed to show that it's primarily a spiritual issue. I'm guessing it was this:

When your identity is so distorted, so out of whack that you are convinced that your only hope of escape is to radically alter and maim the body, the temple, that God gave you, then there's something far more sinister going on.

...but why, exactly, should we conclude that the issue is primarily spiritual rather than biological?

[Truthseeker]

Say X claims a bunny rabbit is trapped in his body. How would he know the kind of thing that is supposed to be trapped in his body is bunny rabbit? How would he answer the question, "How do you know the kind of the thing that is trapped in your body?

I say, what's up, doc, because I feel that Bugs Bunny is trapped in my body and is trying to extract himself, partly by using my speech apparatus.

[Adrift]

Why not?

Because gender is determined by sex, and I don't think there's evidence good enough to think otherwise.

Okay, but I'm just not sure a name is that significant.

I disagree. Words have a powerful effect on people. You apparently do think it's significant, otherwise you wouldn't be protesting.

That's why I believe that evaluating the criterion of harm is important. We presumably want people to stay alive and be able to function, correct? Allowing a suicidal person to pull the trigger would involve the death of that person. Allowing a transabled person to undergo amputation would involve the crippling of that person. Allowing a transgender person to undergo reassignment surgery would result in neither death nor disablement, and could possibly alleviate that person's distress and suffering. Of the three options you presented, this one combines the possible capacity to help with the least amount of harm.

This was covered in your thread as well. What may appear to treat the symptoms does not (in a manner of speaking) cure the disease. Furthermore, rather than help the one afflicted by gender dysphoria it does more harm by encouraging the delusion. It's as harmful as surgically attaching dog ears to the one who suffers from Species Dysphoria. Do you honestly not get this?

I didn't see where you covered that. I'm open to the very real possibility of a spiritual realm in which spiritual problems can genuinely exist. So try me. But first, I'm curious what exactly you mean by "spiritual problem."

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post205859

[fm93]

I disagree that it is possible for a man's brain to be wired similarly to a female's brain in the manner that you're saying it can be.

Why not?

I believe the best way that we can love and respect people suffering from a severe psychological disorder is to not encourage their delusional thinking.

Okay, but I'm just not sure a name is that significant.

I would respond in the same way I would any other severe metal issue or psychological disorder. If a suicidal person, or an Otherkin person, or a transabled person showed no signs of improvement after years of treatment, I wouldn't give up on them and tell them, "ok, yes, you are an animal after all, let's get you some surgery", or "yes, we should lop off your arms and legs", or "okay, the loaded gun is on the nightstand".

You know...this question keeps coming up in these threads, and it kinda blows me away. I mean... is that really your thought process? That we should shrug, and tell them we give up on them?

That's why I believe that evaluating the criterion of harm is important. We presumably want people to stay alive and be able to function, correct? Allowing a suicidal person to pull the trigger would involve the death of that person. Allowing a transabled person to undergo amputation would involve the crippling of that person. Allowing a transgender person to undergo reassignment surgery would result in neither death nor disablement, and could possibly alleviate that person's distress and suffering. Of the three options you presented, this one combines the possible capacity to help with the least amount of harm.

I covered that a bit in your thread, but since you're not a Christian I don't expect you'll find the evidence very meaningful.

I didn't see where you covered that. I'm open to the very real possibility of a spiritual realm in which spiritual problems can genuinely exist. So try me. But first, I'm curious what exactly you mean by "spiritual problem."

[Adrift]

It seems clear to me that cutting off one's limbs would severely impair one's ability to function in daily life, whereas transitioning or undergoing reassignment surgery doesn't do that.

Still, there are people on this very forum who are advocating that cutting off of one's limbs is a valid form of treatment in the same way as a sex operation is a valid form of treatment.

I can see the parallels, but 1) if they're aware that they're not physically animals, then they by definition aren't delusional either,

Yes. They are. The DSM may not qualify it as "delusion", but make no mistake, it is a delusion to think that you are, in some inner way, a wolf, or a bunny rabbit trapped in a man or woman's body.

and 2) it seems to me that it's entirely possible for a brain chemistry issue in development to produce in some biological males a brain that's "wired" more similarly to a female brain, whereas it doesn't seem possible for a human being's brain to actually be wired as an animal's brain.

I disagree that it is possible for a man's brain to be wired similarly to a female's brain in the manner that you're saying it can be. At any rate, your suggestion that one's sex can be wired differently, but one's species cannot is no comfort to the one who suffers from Species Dysphoria.

I thought BDD was more of a form of OCD, rather than an identity issue.

I'm sure that BDD is on the OCD spectrum. People suffering from Body Dysmorphic Disorder share in common with people suffering from Gender Dysphoria a higher than normal rate of comorbidity.

Something as simple as a name seems like it would be giving affirmation and encouragement that they're ultimately respected and loved as human beings.

I believe the best way that we can love and respect people suffering from a severe psychological disorder is to not encourage their delusional thinking.

Hmm...but:
1) On a personal level, how would you respond if after several decades of psychological treatment, the feelings and thoughts still showed no signs of disappearing?

I would respond in the same way I would any other severe metal issue or psychological disorder. If a suicidal person, or an Otherkin person, or a transabled person showed no signs of improvement after years of treatment, I wouldn't give up on them and tell them, "ok, yes, you are an animal after all, let's get you some surgery", or "yes, we should lop off your arms and legs", or "okay, the loaded gun is on the nightstand".

You know...this question keeps coming up in these threads, and it kinda blows me away. I mean... is that really your thought process? That we should shrug, and tell them we give up on them? And you're telling ME what's loving and respectful? There's nothing respectful or loving about giving the suicidal person the gun, or allowing your friend to cut off his own limbs, or to surgically remove his penis, and get breast implants.

How did our world get so dark so fast? Man. It's sad.

2) What evidence do you have that this is a spiritual problem? What do you mean by "spiritual problem?"

I covered that a bit in your thread, but since you're not a Christian I don't expect you'll find the evidence very meaningful.

[fm93]

I noticed you skipped over Apotemnophilia, which is the sexualized version of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where the individual knows they have limbs, but feels that they ought not to.

It seems clear to me that cutting off one's limbs would severely impair one's ability to function in daily life, whereas transitioning or undergoing reassignment surgery doesn't do that.

Nick can throw out Clinical Lycanthropy and replace it with Species Dysphoria in order to fit your prerequisite.

I can see the parallels, but 1) if they're aware that they're not physically animals, then they by definition aren't delusional either, and 2) it seems to me that it's entirely possible for a brain chemistry issue in development to produce in some biological males a brain that's "wired" more similarly to a female brain, whereas it doesn't seem possible for a human being's brain to actually be wired as an animal's brain.

And then, of course, there's the general Body Dysmorphic Disorder, which results in people starving themselves or getting radical surgical procedures.

I thought BDD was more of a form of OCD, rather than an identity issue.

A couple reasons not to call a transgender person by the sex that they prefer, rather than the sex that they are, is because it acts as both an affirmation and encouragement.

Something as simple as a name seems like it would be giving affirmation and encouragement that they're ultimately respected and loved as human beings.

An affirmation of transexuality in toto, and an encouragement to the individual that their psychological evaluation of themselves is accurate. It isn't. It's a disorder that requires psychological and spiritual treatment, not radical surgery.

Hmm...but:
1) On a personal level, how would you respond if after several decades of psychological treatment, the feelings and thoughts still showed no signs of disappearing?
2) What evidence do you have that this is a spiritual problem? What do you mean by "spiritual problem?"

[Cow Poke]

The hypocrisy is amazing - that Bruce would not just try to become 'female', but a () beauty queen. A real woman is beautiful on the inside, but this 60 year old grandfather had to go for the "sexy young thang" look, fixated on the outward appearance. Yet another reason this is an exercise in total futility.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Fm. The analogy really doesn't work. Bruce is still a man and as CP says, he will die a man. I also agree with what Adrift said in that I do not call him by Caitlyn or use the female pronoun because that is affirming what was done. I do not. I think he is best off accepting that he is a male and realizing that mutilating his body is just adding another problem to it. If you do not feel like you are a male and you are a male, it's your feelings you need to get under control.

[Truthseeker]

Did someone actually examine Bruce's chromosomes? Is he XY or something else, like XXY?

I doubt Bruce knew what it would be like after he became . . . um . . . a woman?

As for the statement, "I feel like a woman now" (faked to make a point), that is comparing a specific person with a general person. A given woman may not feel like some other given woman; "I feel like Marilyn Monroe!"--that I could find more acceptable [I wonder if that makes me seem goofy to you?] Besides, in a way there's no such thing as "a woman"; every woman is unique.

[fm93]

fm, maybe you forgot, or ran out of time, but I wanted to know, so I feel I should ask again.

Just got lost in the midst of all the other threads I was involved with on this site. My apologies.

You had said:



I asked in turn:

"Yes, I've heard of similar stories regarding limbs. But if this is so, then only half the notion is supported. Removal is one step. Adding something else (e.g., in the case you describe, female organs) is another."

And in this particular case, was Jenner's unease simply with his male organs, as in this example? Or was there more to it?

In the interview with Diane Sawyer, Jenner said that every since he was a young child he'd experienced inexplicable impulses to try on women's clothes, and had briefly experimented with hormones in the 1980s, which supposedly relieved the distress--and after he stopped, the distress returned. So in Jenner's case, it seems that multiple elements were involved. He felt distress as well as some sensation that his mind was more "female" than male, and also found that hormones could relieve the distress. (That's why in my first post in this thread, I included the option "that one simply is unable to feel 'at home' in the body."

[Adrift]

The key difference here is that those people believe they're literally and physically Biblical figures/video game characters/werewolves, whereas Bruce Jenner was fully aware that he wasn't physically a woman. That fact alone means that this doesn't qualify as a delusion. Here, Jenner experienced a conflict between what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his body, and what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his mind. That conflict--that one simply is unable to feel "at home" in the body, or that the presence of male body parts causes one to feel distress--drives people like Jenner to seek transitioning hormones and/or surgery to alleviate the distress.

I noticed you skipped over Apotemnophilia, which is the sexualized version of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where the individual knows they have limbs, but feels that they ought not to. Nick can throw out Clinical Lycanthropy and replace it with Species Dysphoria in order to fit your prerequisite. And then, of course, there's the general Body Dysmorphic Disorder, which results in people starving themselves or getting radical surgical procedures.

And on that note...if some transgender people ask to be called by a different name and pronouns because it helps alleviate the distress that they feel, what's wrong with just going with that? Quite a few schoolchildren, for instance, ask to be called different names simply because they don't like their birth name, and teachers generally do so out of common courtesy. "I don't like the sound of my birth name" is a much flimsier reason, but calling them a different name doesn't harm anyone.

To be clear, I don't think that entails that all transgender people should undergo reassignment surgery (as it's a difficult step to take, and some people end up regretting it), but simply referring to them by the name that they wish to be called hardly has to lead to that, and by itself it seems fairly innocuous.

A couple reasons not to call a transgender person by the sex that they prefer, rather than the sex that they are, is because it acts as both an affirmation and encouragement. An affirmation of transexuality in toto, and an encouragement to the individual that their psychological evaluation of themselves is accurate. It isn't. It's a disorder that requires psychological and spiritual treatment, not radical surgery.