Why is Bruce an Exception?

[KingsGambit]

I was pointing out that what the community faces is a gravely serious issue that demands serious discussion, but those commenters are grossly trivializing the people and issues. If they want to believe that some answer besides affirmation is the way to go, fine. But they don't have to dismiss certain individuals as merely "men who get fake boobs and put on a dress."

That's fair. I haven't made any such comments and I certainly wouldn't endorse anybody doing so.

[Cow Poke]

I am the one who claimed that.

Yeah, and I pretty much agree. But I didn't say it.

[Cow Poke]

But they don't have to dismiss certain individuals as merely "men who get fake boobs and put on a dress."

This is jackassery, dishonesty and jackassery. Did I mention jackassery? I didn't "dismiss" Bruce merely as "men who get fake boobs and put on a dress". I even acknowledged him as a world class athlete. Perhaps you have some personal inadequacies that cause you to summarize my posts thus.

And besides, you're a weenie.

[Cow Poke]

--instead of attempting to give respect to a lifetime of painful internal struggle.

So, during this "lifetime of painful internal struggle" (do you write romance novels?) Bruce was married at least THREE TIMES to... WOMEN. And as of the April interview with Diane Sawyer, he was STILL saying that he preferred the personal pronoun "he".

He appears to be a very confused individual, and chopping off body parts and adding others doesn't change that.

A quick blurb on the net summing up Jenner's life says "Bruce Jenner won a gold medal in the decathlon in the 1976 Olympic Games. He also set a new world record for the decathlon, with 8,176 points. After the Olympics, he used the fame he had won to develop a new career as an entrepreneur, product spokesperson, and motivational speaker."

You make it sound like he got up every morning agonizing over the notion that he should be a woman, while living as a husband to (over a period of time) three different women.

What's wrong with your brain?

[fm93]

Yeah, and I pretty much agree. But I didn't say it.

So even though I correctly represented your view, you gratuitously attacked me with juvenile name-calling over the technicality of not explicitly having made the claim (even though you very obviously made the claim in an implicit manner).

Talk about jackassery, dishonesty, and jackassery.



If you don't want to seriously discuss things, just don't respond. Please don't pretend that you're interested when you're clearly not.

So, during this "lifetime of painful internal struggle" (do you write romance novels?) Bruce was married at least THREE TIMES to... WOMEN.

And as of the April interview with Diane Sawyer, he was STILL saying that he preferred the personal pronoun "he".

A quick blurb on the net summing up Jenner's life says "Bruce Jenner won a gold medal in the decathlon in the 1976 Olympic Games. He also set a new world record for the decathlon, with 8,176 points. After the Olympics, he used the fame he had won to develop a new career as an entrepreneur, product spokesperson, and motivational speaker."

Jenner has always been attracted to women. And in the interview, Jenner claimed to have used athletics as an escape and distraction from that identity crisis. It wouldn't surprise me if the marriages were also part of that attempt.

[Cow Poke]

So even though I correctly represented your view, you gratuitously attacked me

No, you did NOT correctly represent my view. I said I "pretty much" agree. And "gratuitously attacked you"? You are more thin-skinned than Obama.

with juvenile name-calling

Like "beansprout"? That's the one that really got your panties in a wad, isn't it.

over the technicality of not explicitly having made the claim (even though you very obviously made the claim in an implicit manner).

Only to the extent "pretty much".

Talk about jackassery, dishonesty, and jackassery.

Um... that was over your jackassery concerning the fake boobs and dress. Had nothing to do with my agreeing with Jed.

If you don't want to seriously discuss things, just don't respond. Please don't pretend that you're interested when you're clearly not.

I don't take you seriously - you're a drama queen, so I'll respond accordingly. If you don't like it, then YOU don't have to respond.

Jenner has always been attracted to women.

And their clothes.

And in the interview, Jenner claimed to have used athletics as an escape and distraction from that identity crisis.

Oh, so he was DEALING with it!

[Truthseeker]

Making a courageous choice is not necessarily making a good choice.

[fm93]

I don't take you seriously

Then if you don't mind, allow me to humor you for a few more paragraphs, alright?

I would think it's obvious that I have been taking you seriously. I do this because I've read what you've written about religious topics, and I admire the wisdom, clarity, and heart that you exhibit when you talk about those things. I believe you're a great man, genuinely behaving as Christ would've behaved, even if I don't fully agree with you on those issues. And so I have great respect for you--I mean this sincerely.

But then there are some social/political topics that you comment on, and I just don't see that aforementioned wisdom, clarity and heart. And so I attempt to have serious discussions with you, precisely because I have that aforementioned respect for you and believe that those good qualities are still there, just waiting to be brought out--but in return, I'm met with you largely ignoring me and refusing to engage seriously or civilly with my posts.

This baffles me to a large extent and saddens me to a smaller but still existent extent. I would very much like to be on good terms with you and be able to laugh AND discuss things seriously with you--but you don't even give me that chance. It would be so much easier to just ignore you and dismiss you the way you've done to me if I thought you were a jerk all the time. But I know you're not, and that's why I'm baffled.

So at the risk of incurring more dismissal and disrespect, what must I do to be taken seriously by you?

[fm93]

Making a courageous choice is not necessarily making a good choice.

That's true. But I don't think anyone was disputing that.

[Cow Poke]

Then if you don't mind, allow me to humor you for a few more paragraphs, alright?

Sure. The fact that I don't take you seriously doesn't mean I don't like you.

I would think it's obvious that I have been taking you seriously. I do this because I've read what you've written about religious topics, and I admire the wisdom, clarity, and heart that you exhibit when you talk about those things. I believe you're a great man, genuinely behaving as Christ would've behaved, even if I don't fully agree with you on those issues. And so I have great respect for you--I mean this sincerely.

I appreciate that.

But then there are some social/political topics that you comment on, and I just don't see that aforementioned wisdom, clarity and heart. And so I attempt to have serious discussions with you, precisely because I have that aforementioned respect for you and believe that those good qualities are still there, just waiting to be brought out--but in return, I'm met with you largely ignoring me and refusing to engage seriously or civilly with my posts.

I'll try to do better.

This baffles me to a large extent and saddens me to a smaller but still existent extent. I would very much like to be on good terms with you and be able to laugh AND discuss things seriously with you--but you don't even give me that chance. It would be so much easier to just ignore you and dismiss you the way you've done to me if I thought you were a jerk all the time. But I know you're not, and that's why I'm baffled.

OK, I can't do it this morning, but I'll try to give a much better answer as to why you are so frustrating. Sunday Mornings are generally pretty busy for me.

So at the risk of incurring more dismissal and disrespect, what must I do to be taken seriously by you?

This post goes a long way toward that.

[Jedidiah]

I agree, but I wasn't advocating that certain commenters here "just affirm [the transgender community's] feelings on gender." I was pointing out that what the community faces is a gravely serious issue that demands serious discussion, but those commenters are grossly trivializing the people and issues. If they want to believe that some answer besides affirmation is the way to go, fine. But they don't have to dismiss certain individuals as merely "men who get fake boobs and put on a dress."



If you acknowledge that there indeed is distress, a type so severe that it frequently drives people to suicide, then why would you not consider someone who manages to fight off that distress and carry on for almost sixty years to at least have some level of courage?

The lack of courage specifically applies to surgical mutilation and pretending to be a woman. This is not courageous. Dealing with distress, which many of us to all the time, is challenging but I would hesitate to use the word courage as used for Bruce.

[Jedidiah]

That's true. But I don't think anyone was disputing that.

What is in dispute it the supposed "courage" involved in the choice Bruce made. I see zero courage in that choice - good or bad.

[KingsGambit]

I think it's fair to say that some people are demanding that everyone affirm the choice Jenner made. Some people have insisted that it is rude to use "Bruce" or masculine pronouns. Of course, some people won't do that because they think it's giving in and affirming it.

[Abigail]

I didn't "dismiss" Bruce merely as "men who get fake boobs and put on a dress". I even acknowledged him as a world class athlete. Perhaps you have some personal inadequacies that cause you to summarize my posts thus.

This whole thing is just so bizarre, but I think you hit the nail on the head CP. Bruce Jenner is a lot of things, but for many of us, a girl he aint! If he wants to believe he is one, then sure. And if there are people who want to be included in that then they can too as it is a free world. However when it comes to intimate relationships with people, I think transexuals will face uphill as I think many of the people slapping their backs and cheering them along will have a different view when the delusion is suddenly engulfing their own lives too. This is why I am sure, more and more, we are going to see the cultural shifters and movers start undermining the pillars of reality we have all accepted.

[djbrock]

I'm like AP, I agree that it is a delusion. In fact, I wrote my own piece on it and it was the most "Liked" thing I've ever written. People, as a whole, are just astounded by the insane idea that we can turn a male into a female in any meaningful way. It is so clearly a mental issue to the vast majority of people that all the affirmation and lauding seems quite bizarre.