Why is Bruce an Exception?

[Adrift]

[Cow Poke]

I realized as I was typing that I was telling you something you already know. Instead of canceling the post, which I shoulda done, I neverminded it.

[Cow Poke]

(Jenner, in fact, is a professed Christian)

So, out of curiosity, does it bother any of you guys that Jenner didn't just go from man to pretend woman, but that he went all the way to "glamor girl"? Would you claim that's who he was inside?

[Jedidiah]

He is only a glamor girl because of heavy make up or photo shop.

[Truthseeker]

Is it true that God purposely created in Jenner a woman's soul to see how Bruce would deal with it? One thing I see wrong with that is that God would need time--when Bruce grew up (?)--to know what would eventuate. Not like what I think of God.

[Bill the Cat]

So, out of curiosity, does it bother any of you guys that Jenner didn't just go from man to pretend woman, but that he went all the way to "glamor girl"? Would you claim that's who he was inside?

The only way he can look like a girl is with heavy makeup.

[Cow Poke]

The only way he can look like a girl is with heavy makeup.

My aunt Clara was like that.

[fm93]

The fact that God has given us His Spirit to "walk along side" us (Paraclete) does not mean that His Spirit controls us against our will. We don't become God's puppets. We still have the ability to disobey God and His Will.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to humanity. God is faithful, and He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape so that you are able to bear it.

I think you're equating the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with demon possession. God's power is available to us, but it doesn't force us to be obedient to God's Will. Paul himself made it clear that it's a daily struggle, and often the things he should not do, he does, and the things he should do, he does not.

Using your reasoning, no Christian would ever lie, murder, steal, fornicate, get divorced, commit suicide....

That's not my reasoning. Obviously I'm aware that from a theological perspective, Christians can resist the influence of the Holy Spirit and commit sins. But those would be cases of merely losing spiritual battles. Let's look at that last example. Committing suicide, to me, seems to be on an entirely different level from sins like dishonesty, murder, theft, etc. Those are things that people to do other people. Suicide, meanwhile, is the act of taking the self--that which is most intimately familiar to us, and indeed literally IS us--and ending it. But the self of a Christian is supposed to be infused with the Holy Spirit. That would mean that suicide is tantamount to the Spirit letting its own temple be destroyed by its inhabitor. If that which commonly influences people to commit suicide--depression--is the product of warfare from malevolent spiritual entities, then the Spirit would be allowing its enemies to completely destroy its holy dwelling place. That would be an instance of a Spirit-infused believer losing not just spiritual battles, but the spiritual war altogether.

On the other hand, if depression is the product of biological problems, then things make more sense. It's not a case of losing a spiritual war; rather, it's a case of someone succumbing to the grip of a fallen, death-and-decay filled world, which God made no promises to spare people from presently.

Now, since Adrift specifically mentioned the analogy of the body being a temple in his earlier post, I figured that there would be a parallel here--that the transgender experience can be thought of in a similar manner.

[fm93]

I'm just wondering if there's any claim that Jenner ever attempted to handle this as a spiritual matter. One summary of his interview with Diane Sawyer (I'm looking for a less biased source) has Jenner explaining that God, when creating Jenner, purposely put a girl's soul in him to see "how he'll deal with that", and smiled. If that's true - it seems Bruce was mocking God, not appealing for help.

I can't find the specific video clip now, but I watched the interview, and from the context it didn't seem like a mockery at all. Jenner said something like (significantly paraphrased) "I think of it like this--God, when he was making people, decided that everyone has to have something that they deal with, something they have to struggle with. When God was making me, he said 'Let's see...we'll give him extraordinary athleticism, a kind and caring demeanor, but what is HIS thing to struggle with?' And then God smiled, and said "I know. Let's give him the soul of a girl, and see how he'll deal with that."

[Cow Poke]

That's not my reasoning. Obviously I'm aware that from a theological perspective, Christians can resist the influence of the Holy Spirit and commit sins. But those would be cases of merely losing spiritual battles. Let's look at that last example. Committing suicide, to me, seems to be on an entirely different level from sins like dishonesty, murder, theft, etc.

Well, sure, cause you can't repent from suicide - you can from the other things. :

Those are things that people to do other people. Suicide, meanwhile, is the act of taking the self--that which is most intimately familiar to us, and indeed literally IS us--and ending it. But the self of a Christian is supposed to be infused with the Holy Spirit.

"infused"?

That would mean that suicide is tantamount to the Spirit letting its own temple be destroyed by its inhabitor. If that which commonly influences people to commit suicide--depression--is the product of warfare from malevolent spiritual entities, then the Spirit would be allowing its enemies to completely destroy its holy dwelling place. That would be an instance of a Spirit-infused believer losing not just spiritual battles, but the spiritual war altogether.

Where are you getting "Spirit-infused"? And, yes, it's a final defeat in this world. I personally believe that a person can still go to Heaven if he commits suicide, if he was a believer, just like somebody who died of cancer who was a believer.

On the other hand, if depression is the product of biological problems, then things make more sense. It's not a case of losing a spiritual war; rather, it's a case of someone succumbing to the grip of a fallen, death-and-decay filled world, which God made no promises to spare people from presently.

Where are you going with this? The Holy Spirit does not "possess" us. And it is entirely possible for us, as Christians, to be disobedient.

Now, since Adrift specifically mentioned the analogy of the body being a temple in his earlier post, I figured that there would be a parallel here--that the transgender experience can be thought of in a similar manner.

How bout trying to boil this down into whatever point you're trying to make, OK?

[Cow Poke]

I can't find the specific video clip now, but I watched the interview, and from the context it didn't seem like a mockery at all. Jenner said something like (significantly paraphrased) "I think of it like this--God, when he was making people, decided that everyone has to have something that they deal with, something they have to struggle with. When God was making me, he said 'Let's see...we'll give him extraordinary athleticism, a kind and caring demeanor, but what is HIS thing to struggle with?' And then God smiled, and said "I know. Let's give him the soul of a girl, and see how he'll deal with that."

He's making God out to be a cruel prankster - I think that's mockery. Maybe not quite blasphemy.

[Adrift]

I personally believe that a person can still go to Heaven if he commits suicide, if he was a believer, just like somebody who died of cancer who was a believer.

Just for the record. I don't believe this. I believe that most people who've committed suicide have, in the end, rejected their faithfulness in Christ; With the qualification that Christ is the final arbiter.

[Cow Poke]

Just for the record. I don't believe this. I believe that most people who've committed suicide have, in the end, rejected their faithfulness in Christ; With the qualification that Christ is the final arbiter.

Which is why I said "a person can" rather than "a person will". I should have made it more clear - I was talking about somebody who was a believer, but perhaps had a mental illness. I don't think I have ever indicated that somebody who rejects their faith would go to heaven.

I even put "if he was a believer", but that could have been construed as "in the past". Thanks for the opportunity to clarify

[Adrift]

Which is why I said "a person can" rather than "a person will". I should have made it more clear - I was talking about somebody who was a believer, but perhaps had a mental illness. I don't think I have ever indicated that somebody who rejects their faith would go to heaven.

I even put "if he was a believer", but that could have been construed as "in the past". Thanks for the opportunity to clarify

Right. I didn't mean my post to be so much a reply to you, but to simply clarify my own position on the subject. This is a whole nother topic, though, that probably deserves it's own thread.

[MaxVel]

Right. I didn't mean my post to be so much a reply to you, but to simply clarify my own position on the subject. This is a whole nother topic, though, that probably deserves it's own thread.

See here.