Why is Bruce an Exception?

[Adrift]

And as of now?

As of 2011,

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.

[Cerealman]

And as of now?

[fm93]

Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before.

[Cerealman]

No. As I mentioned earlier, I actually agree with them that the surgeries may not suffice as treatment. But "may not" doesn't definitively equal "does not." Also, I was mainly just pointing out to djbrock that the study doesn't support his claim (that surgery makes things WORSE for transgender patients than they otherwise would've been).

Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before. So how is that not worse off?

[fm93]

So are you ignoring their conclusion?

Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

No. As I mentioned earlier, I actually agree with them that the surgeries may not suffice as treatment. But "may not" doesn't definitively equal "does not." Also, I was mainly just pointing out to djbrock that the study doesn't support his claim (that surgery makes things WORSE for transgender patients than they otherwise would've been).

[Cow Poke]

No one said that surgeries always make things better,

But serious non-reversible elective surgeries SHOULD have a substantial expectation of success, not just "well, let's try this and see what happens".

[Adrift]

But I asked for data indicating that suicide rates are higher among transgender people who underwent surgery compared to transgender people who did not. That quoted part just compares the rate between transgender people who underwent surgery and people who aren't transgender. So that doesn't really prove what you were arguing.

Also, I found what appears to be the study he was referring to, and it doesn't support your argument either. The study follows transgender patients in Sweden from 1973-2003, and as the researchers report (under the section labeled "Mortality"):

.

So if anything, it appears that the surgeries have been yielding improved outcomes.

Additionally, the researchers acknowledged in the abstract that the surgeries do, in fact, alleviate gender dysphoria--which is what I'd been largely focusing on. So far, then, the study doesn't prove much beyond the fact that transgender patients who undergo surgery still face problems compared to the general population. But I don't think too many people were disputing that. It could very well be the case that the suicide rates would've been even higher had they not undergone the surgeries to at least alleviate their internal distress. It could also be the case that the post-surgery patients who attempted suicide did so not because the surgeries themselves generated MORE problems, but because they faced a great amount of persecution from people attacking them after undergoing the change.

So are you ignoring their conclusion?

Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

[fm93]

They've been in the news cycle. I've read several articles over time on them. I saved this one which is the guy who has been foremost on the issue. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mich...der-sex-change

"He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people."

But I asked for data indicating that suicide rates are higher among transgender people who underwent surgery compared to transgender people who did not. That quoted part just compares the rate between transgender people who underwent surgery and people who aren't transgender. So that doesn't really prove what you were arguing.

Also, I found what appears to be the study he was referring to, and it doesn't support your argument either. The study follows transgender patients in Sweden from 1973-2003, and as the researchers report (under the section labeled "Mortality"):

.

So if anything, it appears that the surgeries have been yielding improved outcomes.

Additionally, the researchers acknowledged in the abstract that the surgeries do, in fact, alleviate gender dysphoria--which is what I'd been largely focusing on. So far, then, the study doesn't prove much beyond the fact that transgender patients who undergo surgery still face problems compared to the general population. But I don't think too many people were disputing that. It could very well be the case that the suicide rates would've been even higher had they not undergone the surgeries to at least alleviate their internal distress. It could also be the case that the post-surgery patients who attempted suicide did so not because the surgeries themselves generated MORE problems, but because they faced a great amount of persecution from people attacking them after undergoing the change.

[djbrock]

No one said that surgeries always make things better, but where are these numbers alleging that there are higher suicide rates and poorer outcomes?

They've been in the news cycle. I've read several articles over time on them. I saved this one which is the guy who has been foremost on the issue. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mich...der-sex-change

"He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people."

[fm93]

In fact, people who do mutilate their bodies have poorer outcomes and higher suicide rates than those who do not. That is why it has ceased to be used as a treatment by hospitals.

No one said that surgeries always make things better, but where are these numbers alleging that there are higher suicide rates and poorer outcomes?

[djbrock]

## That decisiom sounds as if it is inspired by pragmatism, rather by appreciation of bodily integrity as a good. Pragmatism is a poor foundation for Christian ethics.

Let's see: do surgery knowing more patients will die that if you don't do surgery. No thanks.

[Rushing Jaws]

In fact, people who do mutilate their bodies have poorer outcomes and higher suicide rates than those who do not. That is why it has ceased to be used as a treatment by hospitals.

## That decisiom sounds as if it is inspired by pragmatism, rather by appreciation of bodily integrity as a good. Pragmatism is a poor foundation for Christian ethics.

[Rushing Jaws]

A better analogy would involve the opposite--you're wearing a layer of uncomfortable clothes (a full-body costume of a cartoon sports mascot, for instance) that's somehow become jammed where the costume head attaches to the costume body, so you can't take them off. You feel almost constant discomfort due to the itchy fabric and hot, humid conditions inside the costume, and everyone who notices you sees you only as a giant grinning cartoon character, while you know that your external appearance doesn't match your internal sense of self. The notion of being trapped forever inside a full-body costume leads you to feel distress. You could undergo therapy to try to convince your mind that you are literally that mascot, but that doesn't work. Finally, someone manages to free up the jammed part, allowing you to step out of the costume and physically reveal your internal self.

## Both good posts. Anti-liberalism, however right it may be, does not prevent people sounding (to quote "1066 and All That") "Right but Repulsive". Being intellectually correct is no good at all, if it is divorced from pastoral sympathy. What is needed is an approach that enables Christians both to be correct, and to identify themselves with those they are correcting. No stand-offish approach of being in the right, but distant and unsympathetic, is going to be persuasive. If we "put people right", or rather, go about trying to do so, we must let them know that we are on their side. How one is to do this, I have no idea; but I think it is essential, otherwise one comes off as hard and preachy 😦 To be objectively correct is not enough - what one says has to be appropriated as correct as well. It has to be internalised by the hearer.

[djbrock]

In fact, people who do mutilate their bodies have poorer outcomes and higher suicide rates than those who do not. That is why it has ceased to be used as a treatment by hospitals.

[hamster]

Gender dysphoria is real and is sometimes so severe that young people kill themselves rather than put up with it. I sympathize with people with that disorder but I am not convinced that trying to transform them physically through medical mutilation is a good way to treat it. There seem to be conflicting reports

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. . . Chris Hyde, the director of Arif, said: "There is a huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing. While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide."

There are people who just have a bizarre fetish/perversion for pretending to be the other sex but they're not the same people as those with gender dysphoria