// Required code

Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Why is Bruce an Exception?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why is Bruce an Exception?

    Should we participate in a cultural delusion?

    The link can be found here.

    The text is as follows:

    What do you do when a man's very being says he's a woman? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    My wife shared on her Facebook a meme of some soldiers going to say they were going to congratulate Bruce Jenner for his courage, obviously said in sarcasm. Some of her friends from high school showed up to try to correct on her on this point which naturally means that her apologist husband has to go to work. I spent some time telling one that Bruce is still a man and why should we think otherwise? The reply I got was that "her" very being said "she" was a woman. Well that's interesting. What about these other cases then?

    Here for instance is Jerusalem Syndrome.

    In this case, someone goes to Jerusalem who has otherwise been a normal person, and then believes themselves to be a biblical figure, like Jesus, Samson, or Mary.

    If we are loving to such people, should we treat them like they are such figures, or should we seek to get them the help they need even though their very being says they are such figures?

    Here is Cotard Delusion. The person with this delusion is convinced that they are dead and often have evidence from their own experience to back that! Their very being again tells them they're dead. Are we loving to them if we treat them like they're dead?

    Here is Capgras Syndrome. In this, the person thinks their loved one has been replaced by a double or impostor. Is the loving thing to do agree with them even though they are mentally convinced of this?

    Fregoli Delusion:
    In this case, the person thinks that multiple people are really one or two persons in disguise. Is it loving to go along with this belief?

    Apotemnophilia. In this case, the person thinks they should amputate healthy parts of their body. Is the loving thing to do to rush this person off to see a surgeon?

    After writing that, I found more delusions and I'm sure there are still more out there.

    Here is Truman Show Delusion. If you've ever seen the movie, that's what it's like. The person thinks they're living in a reality show with cameras and actors all around them.

    There is also even a video game delusion. In this, the person, yes, thinks that they are in a video game. One case of this involved stealing a more powerful car at gunpoint so someone could get bonus points.

    There is also clinical lycanthropy. In this case, the person believes that they have turned into a werewolf.

    We recognize each of these as delusions and we do so by looking at reality. Why not do the same in the case of Bruce?

    Because I do not intend to participate in the delusion, I will still be referring to Bruce as Bruce. I will still be using the masculine pronouns in description. I have no desire whatsoever to join the Cult of Caitlyn.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    I figure that he can call himself what he wants but I will still refer to him as "he" because he is still a male.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Mass Media and Liberaldom has decided to shout "how beautiful are your clothes" to the Naked Emperor.

      And, yes, a true friend would clue the Emperor in that he's been fooled into thinking he's dressed in his finest.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        Should we participate in a cultural delusion?

        The link can be found here.

        The text is as follows:

        What do you do when a man's very being says he's a woman? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

        My wife shared on her Facebook a meme of some soldiers going to say they were going to congratulate Bruce Jenner for his courage, obviously said in sarcasm. Some of her friends from high school showed up to try to correct on her on this point which naturally means that her apologist husband has to go to work. I spent some time telling one that Bruce is still a man and why should we think otherwise? The reply I got was that "her" very being said "she" was a woman. Well that's interesting. What about these other cases then?

        Here for instance is Jerusalem Syndrome.

        In this case, someone goes to Jerusalem who has otherwise been a normal person, and then believes themselves to be a biblical figure, like Jesus, Samson, or Mary.

        If we are loving to such people, should we treat them like they are such figures, or should we seek to get them the help they need even though their very being says they are such figures?

        Here is Cotard Delusion. The person with this delusion is convinced that they are dead and often have evidence from their own experience to back that! Their very being again tells them they're dead. Are we loving to them if we treat them like they're dead?

        Here is Capgras Syndrome. In this, the person thinks their loved one has been replaced by a double or impostor. Is the loving thing to do agree with them even though they are mentally convinced of this?

        Fregoli Delusion:
        In this case, the person thinks that multiple people are really one or two persons in disguise. Is it loving to go along with this belief?

        Apotemnophilia. In this case, the person thinks they should amputate healthy parts of their body. Is the loving thing to do to rush this person off to see a surgeon?

        After writing that, I found more delusions and I'm sure there are still more out there.

        Here is Truman Show Delusion. If you've ever seen the movie, that's what it's like. The person thinks they're living in a reality show with cameras and actors all around them.

        There is also even a video game delusion. In this, the person, yes, thinks that they are in a video game. One case of this involved stealing a more powerful car at gunpoint so someone could get bonus points.

        There is also clinical lycanthropy. In this case, the person believes that they have turned into a werewolf.

        We recognize each of these as delusions and we do so by looking at reality. Why not do the same in the case of Bruce?

        Because I do not intend to participate in the delusion, I will still be referring to Bruce as Bruce. I will still be using the masculine pronouns in description. I have no desire whatsoever to join the Cult of Caitlyn.

        In Christ,
        Nick Peters
        The key difference here is that those people believe they're literally and physically Biblical figures/video game characters/werewolves, whereas Bruce Jenner was fully aware that he wasn't physically a woman. That fact alone means that this doesn't qualify as a delusion. Here, Jenner experienced a conflict between what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his body, and what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his mind. That conflict--that one simply is unable to feel "at home" in the body, or that the presence of male body parts causes one to feel distress--drives people like Jenner to seek transitioning hormones and/or surgery to alleviate the distress.

        And on that note...if some transgender people ask to be called by a different name and pronouns because it helps alleviate the distress that they feel, what's wrong with just going with that? Quite a few schoolchildren, for instance, ask to be called different names simply because they don't like their birth name, and teachers generally do so out of common courtesy. "I don't like the sound of my birth name" is a much flimsier reason, but calling them a different name doesn't harm anyone.

        To be clear, I don't think that entails that all transgender people should undergo reassignment surgery (as it's a difficult step to take, and some people end up regretting it), but simply referring to them by the name that they wish to be called hardly has to lead to that, and by itself it seems fairly innocuous.
        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Mass Media and Liberaldom has decided to shout "how beautiful are your clothes" to the Naked Emperor.
          A better analogy would involve the opposite--you're wearing a layer of uncomfortable clothes (a full-body costume of a cartoon sports mascot, for instance) that's somehow become jammed where the costume head attaches to the costume body, so you can't take them off. You feel almost constant discomfort due to the itchy fabric and hot, humid conditions inside the costume, and everyone who notices you sees you only as a giant grinning cartoon character, while you know that your external appearance doesn't match your internal sense of self. The notion of being trapped forever inside a full-body costume leads you to feel distress. You could undergo therapy to try to convince your mind that you are literally that mascot, but that doesn't work. Finally, someone manages to free up the jammed part, allowing you to step out of the costume and physically reveal your internal self.
          Last edited by fm93; 06-09-2015, 03:14 PM.
          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by fm93 View Post
            A better analogy would involve the opposite-
            Nope. He's still a man.



            Wait... don't tell me.... you're gonna try to become a girl?!?!?!?!
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              See, here's why my analogy is better, fm....

              All the liberals can fawn and fuss and speak of the courage and how free Bruce is as a woman, but there are a lot of us who still remember him on the Wheaties box, and know that he still has male chromosomes. That didn't change. He was born a male, and will die a male. I saw a video of him putting on makeup, and he looked in the mirror and looked surprised and said, "what have I done". I would not be surprised if, in the not too distant future, he has a REAL "what have I done" moment.

              And the inmates, who are running the asylum, are pretending he's a woman, knowing full well he's a man.

              It's Bruce, fm. You guys can pretend all you want, but he's still "he".
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                fm, maybe you forgot, or ran out of time, but I wanted to know, so I feel I should ask again. You had said:

                If some people find that the presence of their male genitalia and facial hair causes them to feel constant distress, they understandably might reason that having surgery or taking hormones to remove the sources of distress would end the distress.
                I asked in turn:

                "Yes, I've heard of similar stories regarding limbs. But if this is so, then only half the notion is supported. Removal is one step. Adding something else (e.g., in the case you describe, female organs) is another."

                And in this particular case, was Jenner's unease simply with his male organs, as in this example? Or was there more to it?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  . . . snip . . .I would not be surprised if, in the not too distant future, he has a REAL "what have I done" moment. . . . snip . . .
                  As has happened to several of the past victims.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                    The key difference here is that those people believe they're literally and physically Biblical figures/video game characters/werewolves, whereas Bruce Jenner was fully aware that he wasn't physically a woman. That fact alone means that this doesn't qualify as a delusion. Here, Jenner experienced a conflict between what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his body, and what he clearly and inescapably saw when he observed his mind. That conflict--that one simply is unable to feel "at home" in the body, or that the presence of male body parts causes one to feel distress--drives people like Jenner to seek transitioning hormones and/or surgery to alleviate the distress.
                    I noticed you skipped over Apotemnophilia, which is the sexualized version of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where the individual knows they have limbs, but feels that they ought not to. Nick can throw out Clinical Lycanthropy and replace it with Species Dysphoria in order to fit your prerequisite. And then, of course, there's the general Body Dysmorphic Disorder, which results in people starving themselves or getting radical surgical procedures.

                    And on that note...if some transgender people ask to be called by a different name and pronouns because it helps alleviate the distress that they feel, what's wrong with just going with that? Quite a few schoolchildren, for instance, ask to be called different names simply because they don't like their birth name, and teachers generally do so out of common courtesy. "I don't like the sound of my birth name" is a much flimsier reason, but calling them a different name doesn't harm anyone.

                    To be clear, I don't think that entails that all transgender people should undergo reassignment surgery (as it's a difficult step to take, and some people end up regretting it), but simply referring to them by the name that they wish to be called hardly has to lead to that, and by itself it seems fairly innocuous.
                    A couple reasons not to call a transgender person by the sex that they prefer, rather than the sex that they are, is because it acts as both an affirmation and encouragement. An affirmation of transexuality in toto, and an encouragement to the individual that their psychological evaluation of themselves is accurate. It isn't. It's a disorder that requires psychological and spiritual treatment, not radical surgery.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jpholding View Post
                      fm, maybe you forgot, or ran out of time, but I wanted to know, so I feel I should ask again.
                      Just got lost in the midst of all the other threads I was involved with on this site. My apologies.

                      You had said:



                      I asked in turn:

                      "Yes, I've heard of similar stories regarding limbs. But if this is so, then only half the notion is supported. Removal is one step. Adding something else (e.g., in the case you describe, female organs) is another."

                      And in this particular case, was Jenner's unease simply with his male organs, as in this example? Or was there more to it?
                      In the interview with Diane Sawyer, Jenner said that every since he was a young child he'd experienced inexplicable impulses to try on women's clothes, and had briefly experimented with hormones in the 1980s, which supposedly relieved the distress--and after he stopped, the distress returned. So in Jenner's case, it seems that multiple elements were involved. He felt distress as well as some sensation that his mind was more "female" than male, and also found that hormones could relieve the distress. (That's why in my first post in this thread, I included the option "that one simply is unable to feel 'at home' in the body."
                      Last edited by fm93; 06-09-2015, 03:30 PM.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Did someone actually examine Bruce's chromosomes? Is he XY or something else, like XXY?

                        I doubt Bruce knew what it would be like after he became . . . um . . . a woman?

                        As for the statement, "I feel like a woman now" (faked to make a point), that is comparing a specific person with a general person. A given woman may not feel like some other given woman; "I feel like Marilyn Monroe!"--that I could find more acceptable [I wonder if that makes me seem goofy to you?] Besides, in a way there's no such thing as "a woman"; every woman is unique.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Fm. The analogy really doesn't work. Bruce is still a man and as CP says, he will die a man. I also agree with what Adrift said in that I do not call him by Caitlyn or use the female pronoun because that is affirming what was done. I do not. I think he is best off accepting that he is a male and realizing that mutilating his body is just adding another problem to it. If you do not feel like you are a male and you are a male, it's your feelings you need to get under control.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The hypocrisy is amazing - that Bruce would not just try to become 'female', but a () beauty queen. A real woman is beautiful on the inside, but this 60 year old grandfather had to go for the "sexy young thang" look, fixated on the outward appearance. Yet another reason this is an exercise in total futility.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              I noticed you skipped over Apotemnophilia, which is the sexualized version of Body Integrity Identity Disorder, where the individual knows they have limbs, but feels that they ought not to.
                              It seems clear to me that cutting off one's limbs would severely impair one's ability to function in daily life, whereas transitioning or undergoing reassignment surgery doesn't do that.

                              Nick can throw out Clinical Lycanthropy and replace it with Species Dysphoria in order to fit your prerequisite.
                              I can see the parallels, but 1) if they're aware that they're not physically animals, then they by definition aren't delusional either, and 2) it seems to me that it's entirely possible for a brain chemistry issue in development to produce in some biological males a brain that's "wired" more similarly to a female brain, whereas it doesn't seem possible for a human being's brain to actually be wired as an animal's brain.

                              And then, of course, there's the general Body Dysmorphic Disorder, which results in people starving themselves or getting radical surgical procedures.
                              I thought BDD was more of a form of OCD, rather than an identity issue.

                              A couple reasons not to call a transgender person by the sex that they prefer, rather than the sex that they are, is because it acts as both an affirmation and encouragement.
                              Something as simple as a name seems like it would be giving affirmation and encouragement that they're ultimately respected and loved as human beings.

                              An affirmation of transexuality in toto, and an encouragement to the individual that their psychological evaluation of themselves is accurate. It isn't. It's a disorder that requires psychological and spiritual treatment, not radical surgery.
                              Hmm...but:
                              1) On a personal level, how would you respond if after several decades of psychological treatment, the feelings and thoughts still showed no signs of disappearing?
                              2) What evidence do you have that this is a spiritual problem? What do you mean by "spiritual problem?"
                              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 10-19-2020, 10:06 AM
                              3 responses
                              25 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 10-16-2020, 09:00 AM
                              0 responses
                              13 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 10-15-2020, 09:44 AM
                              3 responses
                              36 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post ReformedApologist  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 10-14-2020, 09:09 AM
                              0 responses
                              13 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 10-12-2020, 09:02 AM
                              7 responses
                              77 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post ReformedApologist  
                              Working...
                              X