Along came Poly

[Apologiaphoenix]

My thoughts on Richard Carrier's Polyamory: https://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/2...ong-came-poly/

[Catholicity]

This piece here seems so very devoid. Not your analysis, but Carrier's Ideas. Specifically: this quote "I can't do monogamy and be happy." Well then why make a commitment at all? Why not just have a long series of unimportant relationships like the rest of the world? Why even pretend to be in love with someone and then have sex with other women/men? Most people who do this are single. They "date around." Its not acceptable behavior, but people can see you for who you are. "A player." Someone not willing to love anyone with their whole heart, a jerk. I can honestly say from seeing this lifestyle that not only does it hurt the marriage, it brings mistrust in friendships, it divides the heart, hurts the heart, brings nothing but jealousy and hatred, and kills the soul. It is lifeless.
People are meant to be monogamous. Its not easy to live with someones ups and downs. And I speak with the knowledge of a painful previous marriage that ended in a divorce.
When I remarried I was determined to marry a committed Christian, and make it work, the plus side, he was determined to marry a committed Christian and make it work. Is it easy? No, we both have ups and downs, we both have issues that pop up and we both struggle. But we are committed to work towards bettering ourselves for one another and for our daughters. The idea that one is incapable of changing for the other spouse and determined that they must have relations with whatever their eyes lay on is no more than selfish desire, and serves only to benefit lust. I believe firmly that this is life absent of God, and absent of moral sense. It is an empty life.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

About a year ago, I was sitting at a bar with a friend of mine, watching football. We got to discussing a number of different things, and eventually the topic of homosexual marriage came up. My friend is an actress and theater professor in NYC, and (as you can imagine) she is fairly politically liberal. So, we got to discussing how, for our grandparents' generation, having a relationship with someone outside your own faith became normalized-- Catholics fell in love with Protestants, Jews courted Christians, Baptists married Methodists, despite earlier views that this was anathema. For our parents' generation, interracial relationships became normalized, over against very strong views that such a thing was terribly immoral. For our generation, we are watching as homosexual relationships are becoming normalized, and the outcries against this movement bear very striking similarities to the previous fights.

Inquisitively, my friend took a sip of her beer as she mused, "I wonder what the next fight will be?" Without skipping a beat, I immediately responded, "Polyamory."

She took a few seconds to think about it, and said, "You know, I think you're right. I'm not okay with that." She had never really given much thought to Polyamory, before, but her gut reaction towards it was negative. She didn't actively and consciously have any reason for being against it. She offered that it was likely due to the vestiges of her Roman Catholic upbringing, but as she thought about it more, she couldn't find any logical reason (consistent with the rest of her ethics) why she might be opposed to Polyamory.

The only reason I had even thought to mention it was the fact that I have a good friend, Ryan, who I have known for nearly two decades who is openly Polyamorous, and who is quite willing to discuss the subject when asked. He and his legal wife have a relationship with another man and woman (themselves, legally married). All four live together, considering themselves a single family unit. They all love each other exactly as you would expect married people to love one another. They go through the same ups and downs as any other family. They have the same concerns and fears and hopes. The only difference between Ryan's family and my own is that I have only one spouse, while he has three. They have just as happy and healthy a familial relationship as I have.

Now, I completely understand that this is in opposition to general Christian ethics. I am mentioning it more because most people are entirely unfamiliar with the very concept of Polyamory. They have no experience of it, whatsoever, and it can be far too easy to therefore dismiss it as simply being another word for promiscuity. However, just as with any relationship, there is far more to polyamorous relationships than just sex.

[KingsGambit]

Inquisitively, my friend took a sip of her beer as she mused, "I wonder what the next fight will be?" Without skipping a beat, I immediately responded, "Polyamory."

Just trying to look at this from an objective POV:
I agree that this is likely to be the next fight; some polygamy supporters are trying hard to make legal headway out of recent decisions on same-sex marriage. I doubt that it will ever get as much support as homosexuality has, because I think people are more likely to be tangibly harmed by a partner/spouse who becomes involved in this lifestyle (I know people have changed sexual orientations mid-marriage, but I think this is probably going to be less common), and are going to remain jaundiced against it. What Cath mentioned is just one example/anecdote.

[Catholicity]

Just trying to look at this from an objective POV:
I agree that this is likely to be the next fight; some polygamy supporters are trying hard to make legal headway out of recent decisions on same-sex marriage. I doubt that it will ever get as much support as homosexuality has, because I think people are more likely to be tangibly harmed by a partner/spouse who becomes involved in this lifestyle (I know people have changed sexual orientations mid-marriage, but I think this is probably going to be less common), and are going to remain jaundiced against it. What Cath mentioned is just one example/anecdote.

I think a person should give up their childhood and decide their sexuality/marital life before walking down the aisle too

[Boxing Pythagoras]

...I think people are more likely to be tangibly harmed by a partner/spouse who becomes involved in this lifestyle (I know people have changed sexual orientations mid-marriage, but I think this is probably going to be less common), and are going to remain jaundiced against it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. What do you see as potentially harmful?

[KingsGambit]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. What do you see as potentially harmful?

I am thinking of situations where one party would be interested in something like this but not the other, and the one person either tried to pressure the other into a swinger-type situation, or outright pursued affairs. The other party may find themselves strongly biased against the idea of polyamory because of their personal experience, and I think this subset of people might be significant enough to slow the momentum of this particular trend.

I don't know anything about Carrier's ex-wife and don't want to bring her into this at all; I'm just speaking in generalities.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

I am thinking of situations where one party would be interested in something like this but not the other, and the one person either tried to pressure the other into a swinger-type situation, or outright pursued affairs. The other party may find themselves strongly biased against the idea of polyamory because of their personal experience, and I think this subset of people might be significant enough to slow the momentum of this particular trend.

I don't know anything about Carrier's ex-wife and don't want to bring her into this at all; I'm just speaking in generalities.

I can agree that this would certainly be a negative scenario, but I don't see it as being any worse than the myriad other reasons for which people often divorce. The fact that some relationships of a certain type can end poorly is not a good reason to seek to prevent all relationships of that type.

[KingsGambit]

I can agree that this would certainly be a negative scenario, but I don't see it as being any worse than the myriad other reasons for which people often divorce. The fact that some relationships of a certain type can end poorly is not a good reason to seek to prevent all relationships of that type.

To be clear, I wasn't advancing it as a formal argument against accepting polyamory, just my speculation as to why I think it will be slower to gain acceptance.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

To be clear, I wasn't advancing it as a formal argument against accepting polyamory, just my speculation as to why I think it will be slower to gain acceptance.

Ahhh, gotcha. I think I can understand what you're saying.

[Manwë Súlimo]

I think Nick is growing up. A topic just begging for it and not a single horny doofus reference.

[Apologiaphoenix]

THat's because a horny doofus hadn't shown up yet, and now here you are.

[Catholicity]

Now, I completely understand that this is in opposition to general Christian ethics. I am mentioning it more because most people are entirely unfamiliar with the very concept of Polyamory. They have no experience of it, whatsoever, and it can be far too easy to therefore dismiss it as simply being another word for promiscuity. However, just as with any relationship, there is far more to polyamorous relationships than just sex.

Without dismissing polyamory as promiscuous, those that I have known in the lifestyle, have found their way in it courtesy of drugs and alcohol while missing the diagnosis of bipolar depression type 2, Schizoaffective, bipolar type, Adhd, schizoid personality, narcissistic personality disorder, paranoid personality disorder or borderline personality and histrionic disorder. Generally these folks were unmedicated, not seeking treatment, and highly affected by a past consisting of multiple drug and/or alcohol use/abuse. My larger point in giving out this information, decisions like this are made typically without culturally being raised in the environment (I am not speaking about cultures such as Tribal Africa, Asia, etc, where this is Commonplace or religions where polygamy is considered normal) Where Polyamory is featured out of a diseased state of mind. It is made out of a decision to so called "feed the ego" as opposed to practice what is within cultural feasible norms. Because "the grass looks greener on the other side" And those with psychological problems are not apt to consider others involved nor what their behavior may do for their children, relationships are broken, trust is left in, and it is not uncommon for "swallowed" feelings to simply become "amicable divorces" The Idea of you can't meet my needs so I must have someone else do it and if you don't approve I'll have an affair, is often what starts polyamory whether equal or unequal. At its core, its not about genuine love, its about lusting after a fantasy life.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

The Idea of you can't meet my needs so I must have someone else do it and if you don't approve I'll have an affair is often what starts polyamory whether equal or unequal. At its core, its not about genuine love, its about lusting after a fantasy life.

Believe it or not, my polyamorous friends are just as opposed to this sort of a mindset as any monogamous couple you might meet. Relationships shouldn't be one-sided, my-way-or-the-highway type affairs. Whether we are talking about traditional relationships or polyamorous relationships, this kind of selfish view is rather unhealthy.

I'm not talking about that kind of a toxic relationship. I'm talking about a truly loving, consensual, and reciprocative relationship between more than just two people.

[Catholicity]

Believe it or not, my polyamorous friends are just as opposed to this sort of a mindset as any monogamous couple you might meet. Relationships shouldn't be one-sided, my-way-or-the-highway type affairs. Whether we are talking about traditional relationships or polyamorous relationships, this kind of selfish view is rather unhealthy.

I'm not talking about that kind of a toxic relationship. I'm talking about a truly loving, consensual, and reciprocative relationship between more than just two people.

As a neutral person, I would guess that while your friends are likely good friends, they exist and cohabitate for the sex. Remove the sex component and they'd not be cohabitating at all. There in lies the problem. They might be "agreeing" on the rules mutually but that does not mean its ok. The married couples are not giving each other themselves completely. In fact it is saying "you cannot satisfy me totally so I am going elsewhere" Both of them are saying it. Why stay married at all?