There's a difference between a character in a story killing another character and the writer killing the character. God would be the writer. So to speak. No perfect analogy.
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Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
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Genesis and Antis
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Originally posted by MadBum40 View PostIf God intervenes to stop people from doing evil by invading them, He's a moral monster for killing those poor, poor evildoers. If He doesn't, He's still a moral monster for letting those evildoers kill other poor, poor people.
Do you think the Allied forces in WW2 would have been justified in wiping out every single German? Every man, woman and child? Despite the Nazi's being evil, leaders at the time chose against genocide, and I think that that was the right decision. I appreciate this is not quite the same, so let us say we could go back in time to say 1939, before Hitler invaded Poland. Would it be morally right to kill every German? Still I would say no.
God has a lot more options to stop an invasion than you or I. I cannot understand how people can claim genocide was the moral one (other than they are obliged to because of the verses in the Bible).
And the sad fact is that God does not intervene to stop all evildoers. He could have stopped Hitler, but chose not to. He lets rapists and murders rape and murder. He allows Satan to live according to Christian belief! You say it ironically, but yes, he is a moral monster for letting evildoers perpetrate their crimes and for the genocides too, when he also killed innocent children.
I don't get what your problem is, here, nor do I have any idea as to what you mean by "no good for what we are meant for". Your view seems to "solve" that problem by denying we are meant for anything. It's like breaking the pot to get rid of cracks.
It's still the same thing, in essence. We don't have any purpose, or we're "not good enough to fulfill" that purpose, either way, we're not fulfilling any purposes; why complain so much, then?
Some of you might have seen this meme.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3999[/ATTACH]
Yes. So is this what Christianity really says?
The not good enough to fulfill our purpose thing and the pot analogy was Abigail's by the way; I do not think that that is the case.Attached FilesMy Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostThere's a difference between a character in a story killing another character and the writer killing the character. God would be the writer. So to speak. No perfect analogy.
"A lot of Christians say everyone is sinful, right from the moment of birth (some go so far as to say we all deserve to go to hell just for being born human). A lot of Christians say God has the right to snuff our lives out if he wants (to morally justify various genocides mainly)"
God killing a whole race is analogous (but not pperfectly analogous!) to an author killing a character in a book to these people apparently.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostThanks, that illustrates perfectly for ManBum40 what I meant in the bit he quoted above.
"[I]A lot of Christians say everyone is sinful, right from the moment of birth (some go so far as to say we all deserve to go to hell just for being born human). A lot of Christians say God has the right to snuff our lives out if he wants (to morally justify various g
God killing a whole race is analogous (but not pperfectly analogous!) to an author killing a character in a book to these people apparently.
There is an obvious pattern here:
The annihilations are judgments.
These judgments are for publicly-recognized (indeed, international and cross-cultural in scope!) cruelty and violence of an EXTREME and WIDESPREAD nature.
These judgments are preceded by LONG PERIODS of warning/exposure to truth (and therefore, opportunity to "change outcomes").
Innocent adults are given a 'way out'
Household members share in the fortunes of the parents (for good or ill).
Somebody ALWAYS escapes (Lot, Noah, Kenites)
These are exceptional cases--there are VERY, VERY few of these.Last edited by Christianbookworm; 02-13-2015, 03:38 PM.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by MadBum40 View PostIf God intervenes to stop people from doing evil by invading them, He's a moral monster for killing those poor, poor evildoers. If He doesn't, He's still a moral monster for letting those evildoers kill other poor, poor people.
I don't get what your problem is, here, nor do I have any idea as to what you mean by "no good for what we are meant for". Your view seems to "solve" that problem by denying we are meant for anything. It's like breaking the pot to get rid of cracks.
It's still the same thing, in essence. We don't have any purpose, or we're "not good enough to fulfill" that purpose, either way, we're not fulfilling any purposes; why complain so much, then?
EDIT:
Both those quotes are by "The Pixie". I don't know how to post multiple quotes from a single post with the name.
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostIt is sad that, being all-powerful, God can only stop wars by wiping out a nation altogether.
Do you think the Allied forces in WW2 would have been justified in wiping out every single German? Every man, woman and child? Despite the Nazi's being evil, leaders at the time chose against genocide, and I think that that was the right decision. I appreciate this is not quite the same, so let us say we could go back in time to say 1939, before Hitler invaded Poland. Would it be morally right to kill every German? Still I would say no. God has a lot more options to stop an invasion than you or I. I cannot understand how people can claim genocide was the moral one (other than they are obliged to because of the verses in the Bible). And the sad fact is that God does not intervene to stop all evildoers. He could have stopped Hitler, but chose not to. He lets rapists and murders rape and murder. He allows Satan to live according to Christian belief! You say it ironically, but yes, he is a moral monster for letting evildoers perpetrate their crimes and for the genocides too, when he also killed innocent children.
What I was trying to say that God hit two birds with one stone (only used as an idiom, not saying that God literally wants to kill cute little birds!). Israel got the land, and they also "wiped out" the Amalekites (which I'm assuming is the incident you're talking about).
This objection you are concerned about is a fairly basic one, (not in the sense of seriousness or difficulty, but that most people encounter this as one of the first problems when they look into Christianity) so I'm surprised you don't already know the basic Christian replies to this.
What have you read so far on this? Do you want recommendations? (I'd recommend Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan). There's even some free material you can read, it's available online. (http://christianthinktank.com/rbutcher1.html)
Originally posted by The Pixie View PostYou have missed the point of my argument, which I have to accept was probably easy to do. You have made me wonder if Abigail has too, thinking about my exchange with her. It stems from this on AP's blog page:
Is this what Christianity really says? AP on his blog was arguing otherwise. I have spent a lot of this thread arguing that it is fairly accurarate. However, I am now wondering if Abigail is arguing that the left side is true, which is a whole different argument (I think AP has a bit too, which will have helped the confusion).
The not good enough to fulfill our purpose thing and the pot analogy was Abigail's by the way; I do not think that that is the case.
I still think arguing from memes is a bit...well, I can't think of a word. Bevakoofi-bhara, I'd say in my language. Those memes aren't meant to be well-thought out arguments, they're supposed to be attention-grabbing soundbites. You should find good books to read if you're really interested in getting to the truth, because you'd think it stupid if I tried to argue something based on a meme. If you don't care and want to just argue with people, then it's all rather pointless for me. I'd rather move on.Last edited by MadBum40; 02-13-2015, 04:32 PM.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostPut =Username (username being where you put the posters name) right after quote in the brackets. Also, it's a good idea to use "reply with quote" so the original post is linked to.
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostYou have missed the point of my argument, which I have to accept was probably easy to do. You have made me wonder if Abigail has too, thinking about my exchange with her. It stems from this on AP's blog page:
Some of you might have seen this meme.
Attachment 3999
Yes. So is this what Christianity really says?
Is this what Christianity really says? AP on his blog was arguing otherwise. I have spent a lot of this thread arguing that it is fairly accurarate. However, I am now wondering if Abigail is arguing that the left side is true, which is a whole different argument (I think AP has a bit too, which will have helped the confusion).
The not good enough to fulfill our purpose thing and the pot analogy was Abigail's by the way; I do not think that that is the case.
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Can the Pixie suggest a way to measure how wonderful any given thing is? If he does and it looks wonderful, then maybe it's scientific indeed.The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostDon't want to feed you...
"Somehow in his environment, he got the impression that atheists must just be wicked people somehow. I don’t know any Christian intellectual who holds to such a position."
Do you think I am a troll because I am an atheist, or is there some other reason? Or is the "feed you" reference something else entirely?
Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostDon't want to feed you, but I would like to point out that the main judgement of those races was to be driven out of the land. Not genocide. So a destruction of their culture. Here's where I got this idea from: http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.htmlMy Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostThe two sides of the sign are not mutually exclusive. You can be flawed and special at the same time. If we weren't, why bother saving us?
Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostSo how does anyone feel about cultures that practice child sacrifice? And stuff I'm not sure I can mention here.
How do you stop them? Destroy the entire race, children and all? I.e., stop the nation sacrificing a limited number of their children by killing all the children? Is that really the best idea God could come up with? How about a lightning bolt whenever one of the priests is about to do the sacrifice? It would not take too many before they got the message. If you believe in a Global Flood, how about God stops Noah's descendants developing a culture where child sacrifice is a good idea in the first place?
This may come across as an atheist telling God what he should do. It is not - I do not believe there is a god, so I am not going to tell he what he should do. It is an atheist pointing out an inconsistency in Christian belief.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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