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Genesis and Antis

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  • #46
    There's a difference between a character in a story killing another character and the writer killing the character. God would be the writer. So to speak. No perfect analogy.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by MadBum40 View Post
      If God intervenes to stop people from doing evil by invading them, He's a moral monster for killing those poor, poor evildoers. If He doesn't, He's still a moral monster for letting those evildoers kill other poor, poor people.
      It is sad that, being all-powerful, God can only stop wars by wiping out a nation altogether.

      Do you think the Allied forces in WW2 would have been justified in wiping out every single German? Every man, woman and child? Despite the Nazi's being evil, leaders at the time chose against genocide, and I think that that was the right decision. I appreciate this is not quite the same, so let us say we could go back in time to say 1939, before Hitler invaded Poland. Would it be morally right to kill every German? Still I would say no.

      God has a lot more options to stop an invasion than you or I. I cannot understand how people can claim genocide was the moral one (other than they are obliged to because of the verses in the Bible).

      And the sad fact is that God does not intervene to stop all evildoers. He could have stopped Hitler, but chose not to. He lets rapists and murders rape and murder. He allows Satan to live according to Christian belief! You say it ironically, but yes, he is a moral monster for letting evildoers perpetrate their crimes and for the genocides too, when he also killed innocent children.
      I don't get what your problem is, here, nor do I have any idea as to what you mean by "no good for what we are meant for". Your view seems to "solve" that problem by denying we are meant for anything. It's like breaking the pot to get rid of cracks.
      It's still the same thing, in essence. We don't have any purpose, or we're "not good enough to fulfill" that purpose, either way, we're not fulfilling any purposes; why complain so much, then?
      You have missed the point of my argument, which I have to accept was probably easy to do. You have made me wonder if Abigail has too, thinking about my exchange with her. It stems from this on AP's blog page:
      Some of you might have seen this meme.
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]3999[/ATTACH]
      Yes. So is this what Christianity really says?
      Is this what Christianity really says? AP on his blog was arguing otherwise. I have spent a lot of this thread arguing that it is fairly accurarate. However, I am now wondering if Abigail is arguing that the left side is true, which is a whole different argument (I think AP has a bit too, which will have helped the confusion).

      The not good enough to fulfill our purpose thing and the pot analogy was Abigail's by the way; I do not think that that is the case.
      Attached Files
      My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        There's a difference between a character in a story killing another character and the writer killing the character. God would be the writer. So to speak. No perfect analogy.
        Thanks, that illustrates perfectly for ManBum40 what I meant in the bit he quoted above.

        "A lot of Christians say everyone is sinful, right from the moment of birth (some go so far as to say we all deserve to go to hell just for being born human). A lot of Christians say God has the right to snuff our lives out if he wants (to morally justify various genocides mainly)"

        God killing a whole race is analogous (but not pperfectly analogous!) to an author killing a character in a book to these people apparently.
        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
          Thanks, that illustrates perfectly for ManBum40 what I meant in the bit he quoted above.

          "[I]A lot of Christians say everyone is sinful, right from the moment of birth (some go so far as to say we all deserve to go to hell just for being born human). A lot of Christians say God has the right to snuff our lives out if he wants (to morally justify various g
          God killing a whole race is analogous (but not pperfectly analogous!) to an author killing a character in a book to these people apparently.
          Don't want to feed you, but I would like to point out that the main judgement of those races was to be driven out of the land. Not genocide. So a destruction of their culture. Here's where I got this idea from: http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html
          There is an obvious pattern here:

          The annihilations are judgments.
          These judgments are for publicly-recognized (indeed, international and cross-cultural in scope!) cruelty and violence of an EXTREME and WIDESPREAD nature.
          These judgments are preceded by LONG PERIODS of warning/exposure to truth (and therefore, opportunity to "change outcomes").
          Innocent adults are given a 'way out'
          Household members share in the fortunes of the parents (for good or ill).
          Somebody ALWAYS escapes (Lot, Noah, Kenites)
          These are exceptional cases--there are VERY, VERY few of these.
          Last edited by Christianbookworm; 02-13-2015, 03:38 PM.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #50
            The two sides of the sign are not mutually exclusive. You can be flawed and special at the same time. If we weren't, why bother saving us?
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MadBum40 View Post
              If God intervenes to stop people from doing evil by invading them, He's a moral monster for killing those poor, poor evildoers. If He doesn't, He's still a moral monster for letting those evildoers kill other poor, poor people.


              I don't get what your problem is, here, nor do I have any idea as to what you mean by "no good for what we are meant for". Your view seems to "solve" that problem by denying we are meant for anything. It's like breaking the pot to get rid of cracks.
              It's still the same thing, in essence. We don't have any purpose, or we're "not good enough to fulfill" that purpose, either way, we're not fulfilling any purposes; why complain so much, then?

              EDIT:
              Both those quotes are by "The Pixie". I don't know how to post multiple quotes from a single post with the name.
              Put =Username (username being where you put the posters name) right after quote in the brackets. Also, it's a good idea to use "reply with quote" so the original post is linked to.

              Comment


              • #52
                So how does anyone feel about cultures that practice child sacrifice? And stuff I'm not sure I can mention here.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  It is sad that, being all-powerful, God can only stop wars by wiping out a nation altogether.

                  Do you think the Allied forces in WW2 would have been justified in wiping out every single German? Every man, woman and child? Despite the Nazi's being evil, leaders at the time chose against genocide, and I think that that was the right decision. I appreciate this is not quite the same, so let us say we could go back in time to say 1939, before Hitler invaded Poland. Would it be morally right to kill every German? Still I would say no. God has a lot more options to stop an invasion than you or I. I cannot understand how people can claim genocide was the moral one (other than they are obliged to because of the verses in the Bible). And the sad fact is that God does not intervene to stop all evildoers. He could have stopped Hitler, but chose not to. He lets rapists and murders rape and murder. He allows Satan to live according to Christian belief! You say it ironically, but yes, he is a moral monster for letting evildoers perpetrate their crimes and for the genocides too, when he also killed innocent children.
                  I made a mistake. I stated my point very, very badly.

                  What I was trying to say that God hit two birds with one stone (only used as an idiom, not saying that God literally wants to kill cute little birds!). Israel got the land, and they also "wiped out" the Amalekites (which I'm assuming is the incident you're talking about).

                  This objection you are concerned about is a fairly basic one, (not in the sense of seriousness or difficulty, but that most people encounter this as one of the first problems when they look into Christianity) so I'm surprised you don't already know the basic Christian replies to this.

                  What have you read so far on this? Do you want recommendations? (I'd recommend Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan). There's even some free material you can read, it's available online. (http://christianthinktank.com/rbutcher1.html)

                  Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                  You have missed the point of my argument, which I have to accept was probably easy to do. You have made me wonder if Abigail has too, thinking about my exchange with her. It stems from this on AP's blog page:

                  Is this what Christianity really says? AP on his blog was arguing otherwise. I have spent a lot of this thread arguing that it is fairly accurarate. However, I am now wondering if Abigail is arguing that the left side is true, which is a whole different argument (I think AP has a bit too, which will have helped the confusion).

                  The not good enough to fulfill our purpose thing and the pot analogy was Abigail's by the way; I do not think that that is the case.
                  I still don't understand what you mean by "flawed" and stuff. Everyone is flawed in some sense in something; I'm too flawed to be a pro NBA basketball player. You don't mean stuff like self-esteem or a "negative personal image" or some other psychological kinda thing, do you?

                  I still think arguing from memes is a bit...well, I can't think of a word. Bevakoofi-bhara, I'd say in my language. Those memes aren't meant to be well-thought out arguments, they're supposed to be attention-grabbing soundbites. You should find good books to read if you're really interested in getting to the truth, because you'd think it stupid if I tried to argue something based on a meme. If you don't care and want to just argue with people, then it's all rather pointless for me. I'd rather move on.
                  Last edited by MadBum40; 02-13-2015, 04:32 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Put =Username (username being where you put the posters name) right after quote in the brackets. Also, it's a good idea to use "reply with quote" so the original post is linked to.
                    Thank you! The next thing on my list to learn is how to put text in that that "for the sarcastically impared" box.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MadBum40 View Post
                      Thank you! The next thing on my list to learn is how to put text in that that "for the sarcastically impared" box.
                      For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                      Well, I'm most certainly not going to teach you how to do that!



                      [ sarcasm ] Sarcastic response here. [ /sarcasm ]

                      Remove the spaces between the brackets.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                        Well, I'm most certainly not going to teach you how to do that!



                        [ sarcasm ] Sarcastic response here. [ /sarcasm ]

                        Remove the spaces between the brackets.
                        I have always wanted a sarcasm font or something, but this should do the trick.

                        For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                        This is the best thing since canned bread!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                          You have missed the point of my argument, which I have to accept was probably easy to do. You have made me wonder if Abigail has too, thinking about my exchange with her. It stems from this on AP's blog page:

                          Some of you might have seen this meme.
                          Attachment 3999
                          Yes. So is this what Christianity really says?

                          Is this what Christianity really says? AP on his blog was arguing otherwise. I have spent a lot of this thread arguing that it is fairly accurarate. However, I am now wondering if Abigail is arguing that the left side is true, which is a whole different argument (I think AP has a bit too, which will have helped the confusion).

                          The not good enough to fulfill our purpose thing and the pot analogy was Abigail's by the way; I do not think that that is the case.
                          The reason people are missing your argument is because you don't actually have one. Firstly the meme is spurious because if Christianity is true then it would ultimately be more damaging to ignore it. Secondly Christianity is not summed up by the religious side of that meme (I think AP was quite detailed on this) and lastly, you have basically had to appeal to non-testable arguments to keep the illusion of the 'scientific' side of the meme - and that is not scientific.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Can the Pixie suggest a way to measure how wonderful any given thing is? If he does and it looks wonderful, then maybe it's scientific indeed.
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              Don't want to feed you...
                              Feed me? Is this a veiled accusation that I am a troll? This perhaps ties in with a point AP made on another blog page:

                              "Somehow in his environment, he got the impression that atheists must just be wicked people somehow. I don’t know any Christian intellectual who holds to such a position."

                              Do you think I am a troll because I am an atheist, or is there some other reason? Or is the "feed you" reference something else entirely?
                              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              Don't want to feed you, but I would like to point out that the main judgement of those races was to be driven out of the land. Not genocide. So a destruction of their culture. Here's where I got this idea from: http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html
                              Am I missing something here? You are saying the genocide was justified because it was part of land theft? Or that it is justifed if it is a destructure of their culture?
                              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                The two sides of the sign are not mutually exclusive. You can be flawed and special at the same time. If we weren't, why bother saving us?
                                That is more-or-less what I am saying. Sure we are not perfect, but we are great anyway. That is the message on the right hand side. The issue here is that Christianity says you are not merely imperfect, but that you are so flawed - each and every one of us - that we deserve to go to hell. That is the message on the left side of the card.
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                So how does anyone feel about cultures that practice child sacrifice? And stuff I'm not sure I can mention here.
                                Child sacrifice and "stuff" are wrong. I am sure we can all agree on that.

                                How do you stop them? Destroy the entire race, children and all? I.e., stop the nation sacrificing a limited number of their children by killing all the children? Is that really the best idea God could come up with? How about a lightning bolt whenever one of the priests is about to do the sacrifice? It would not take too many before they got the message. If you believe in a Global Flood, how about God stops Noah's descendants developing a culture where child sacrifice is a good idea in the first place?

                                This may come across as an atheist telling God what he should do. It is not - I do not believe there is a god, so I am not going to tell he what he should do. It is an atheist pointing out an inconsistency in Christian belief.
                                My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                                Comment

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