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Why I Question The "Personal Relationship" Paradigm

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Jesus may not be our "homeboy", but he is certainly our friend.

    Source: John 15:14

    You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The scriptures seem to indicate that, yes, while we are to acknowledge God's glory, and that we should fear and respect his majesty, at the same time, he does want us to come to know him. To love him. To come into a relationship with him that is something like a papa, and a brother, and a friend. Its said that Jesus' use of the word Abba to refer to God was one of intimacy (I'm not sure what the current scholarship is on that though), and the scriptures seem to encourage us to understand God in much the same way.

    And not only that, but as New Testament saints, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, the comforter. The one who helps us pray when we don't know what to pray for. I can't imagine anyone closer to us than Him. That's something that the Old Testament saints rarely had access to.

    I understand the backlash against the whole Personal Relationship paradigm, especially when Christianity is crowded next to post-modern, new agey spiritualism that wants to make everything nice and squishy for everyone, but maybe we should keep in mind why this paradigm came into being in the first place. It wasn't so long ago that when people thought of Christianity, they thought of screaming pastors spitting damnation and hellfire from a joyless church pulpit, or towering gray Cathedrals that made people feel tiny and insignificant, with robed men reciting a language you couldn't speak.

    People were tired of all of that. It was dry, and cold, and dead. By the 60s young people were leaving the church to find a concept of the divine in other places (usually the East). The Jesusfreak movement came up at the tail end of the 60s to remind people, that HEY, Jesus was a man like us. He was tempted in all ways like us. Knowing our suffering, and the consequences of our sin nature, the son of God became a man, who ate, drank, slept, wept, laughed, yelled, hurt, and loved like us. God incarnate, sacrificed his glory for us, and then had that glory restored in his resurrection. The Christian God is about as personal as you can get. Now, this blew people away. This is something they could relate to. This is a God they wanted to come to know. And it changed how so many people actually perceived God and Christianity.

    Of course, anytime humans swing one way, we tend to over do it. So yeah, Christ isn't the scary monster trying to send us to hell every moment of our lives, but neither is he the buddy Jesus who wants to toke a doobie with us. Like a lot of things, the truth is someplace in the middle.
    Couldn't one argue that the reference to "friends" was only specifically to people who personally knew Jesus in the flesh, though? I'm still not sure what to make of this though I'm at the very least partially convinced.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Could it be that this is a matter of emphasis? One side emphasizes the friendship with Jesus (perhaps too much), while the other side emphasizes his Kingship? This is one of those things that I'm a bit torn on. I find myself agreeing with both sides, a lot of the time.

      Still, it would behoove the "Jesus is my homeboy" crowd to remember that he is the King of the universe. Some perspective is always in order.
      I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        Could it be that this is a matter of emphasis? One side emphasizes the friendship with Jesus (perhaps too much), while the other side emphasizes his Kingship? This is one of those things that I'm a bit torn on. I find myself agreeing with both sides, a lot of the time.

        Still, it would behoove the "Jesus is my homeboy" crowd to remember that he is the King of the universe. Some perspective is always in order.
        I think I've long emphasized the kingship to an extent that I felt that prayer for things that seemed mundane weren't appropriate. In my first semester in seminary, we had to take a spiritual formation class, and there was an emphasis on prayer. I found that it was more effective than I had ever realized... so I think you're onto something with there needing to be a happy medium.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          Couldn't one argue that the reference to "friends" was only specifically to people who personally knew Jesus in the flesh, though?
          I don't think so. Not unless one wants to also argue that God is a respecter of persons, or that the disciples Jesus was talking to in the flesh are under some different/special covenant that we're not. I don't think that's the case.

          I do find this way of understanding the NT kind of odd, though. In another thread, DE recently wrote that the book of 1st Peter didn't apply to him because chapter one tells us specifically that its written to the "aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia". I don't think I've ever seen Christians specify which NT passages are applicable to them in quite that way before. Makes one wonder what they think of the rest of the NT like the letters of Paul that are directed to specific people or Christian communities. If we take out all of those passages that don't specifically indicate the Christian church in general, how much Bible are we left with? I mean, obviously, context, good exegesis, and knowing who the original audience was is important for understanding how passages relate to us, but its not like we're under some different covenant. Most of what Jesus said was said to his disciples in the flesh. Most of that still applies to us. Anyways, I digress.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            I don't think so. Not unless one wants to also argue that God is a respecter of persons, or that the disciples Jesus was talking to in the flesh are under some different/special covenant that we're not. I don't think that's the case.

            I do find this way of understanding the NT kind of odd, though. In another thread, DE recently wrote that the book of 1st Peter didn't apply to him because chapter one tells us specifically that its written to the "aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia". I don't think I've ever seen Christians specify which NT passages are applicable to them in quite that way before. Makes one wonder what they think of the rest of the NT like the letters of Paul that are directed to specific people or Christian communities. If we take out all of those passages that don't specifically indicate the Christian church in general, how much Bible are we left with? I mean, obviously, context, good exegesis, and knowing who the original audience was is important for understanding how passages relate to us, but its not like we're under some different covenant. Most of what Jesus said was said to his disciples in the flesh. Most of that still applies to us. Anyways, I digress.
            Yeah, I thought that "that doesn't apply to me" argument was a bit odd. It sure opens the door to the cafeteria, though. It kinda reminds me of the politicians who think laws don't apply to them.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Couldn't one argue that the reference to "friends" was only specifically to people who personally knew Jesus in the flesh, though? I'm still not sure what to make of this though I'm at the very least partially convinced.
              I agree with this as well. And I have the sneaking suspicion (Although I can't recall if true or not) that perhaps this passage was mostly referred to the 12 disciples (His close associates), especially in light of his exhortation to his select appointed ones to bear fruit that will last (although It could be argued that it is a general command to ALL who will follow the Christ in the ages to come, I am open to that as well) . And the term "friend" seems mostly in the sense of "ally", no different of the common ancient use of the term "Friend of Caesar" to refer to the allegiance towards someone, (Which in a way, it's still a personal relationship of sorts) and hardly a casual "buddy" deal.
              Last edited by Andius; 12-23-2014, 04:59 PM.
              Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
              As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

              "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Andius View Post
                I agree with this as well. And I have the sneaking suspicion (Although I can't recall if true or not) that perhaps this passage was mostly referred to the 12 disciples (His close associates), especially in light of his exhortation to his select appointed ones to bear fruit that will last (although It could be argued that it is a general command to ALL who will follow the Christ in the ages to come, I am open to that as well) . And the term "friend" seems mostly in the sense of "ally", no different of the common ancient use of the term "Friend of Caesar" to refer to the allegiance towards someone, (Which in a way, it's still a personal relationship of sorts) and hardly a casual "buddy" deal.
                When I cited this passage I didn't have any "casual 'buddy' deal" in mind. I sorta thought I had made that clear in that previous post, but maybe not. From a purely social context perspective, David deSilva writes of this passage, "Obedience leads to a friendship relationship with Jesus and access to and assurance of God's personal patronage (God's willingness to hear and answer believers' petitions; see also Jn 14:14-17)." (Honor, Patronage, Kinship & Purity, pg. 148)

                Of course, if you don't think the passage applies to you, then I suppose its a moot point.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  When I cited this passage I didn't have any "casual 'buddy' deal" in mind. I sorta thought I had made that clear in that previous post, but maybe not. From a purely social context perspective, David deSilva writes of this passage, "Obedience leads to a friendship relationship with Jesus and access to and assurance of God's personal patronage (God's willingness to hear and answer believers' petitions; see also Jn 14:14-17)." (Honor, Patronage, Kinship & Purity, pg. 148)

                  Of course, if you don't think the passage applies to you, then I suppose its a moot point.
                  Oh, rechecking your posts back, actually, you made that clear. Admittedly I forgot to check them. And seeing that you are awares of the patronage model that is described in New Testament writ, I would say you're spot on.

                  At the moment, I am somewhat ambiguous wether that passage applies to all members of the Church throughout the ages, or the select 12 of that time.
                  Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
                  As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

                  "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    I don't think so. Not unless one wants to also argue that God is a respecter of persons, or that the disciples Jesus was talking to in the flesh are under some different/special covenant that we're not. I don't think that's the case.

                    I do find this way of understanding the NT kind of odd, though. In another thread, DE recently wrote that the book of 1st Peter didn't apply to him because chapter one tells us specifically that its written to the "aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia". I don't think I've ever seen Christians specify which NT passages are applicable to them in quite that way before. Makes one wonder what they think of the rest of the NT like the letters of Paul that are directed to specific people or Christian communities. If we take out all of those passages that don't specifically indicate the Christian church in general, how much Bible are we left with? I mean, obviously, context, good exegesis, and knowing who the original audience was is important for understanding how passages relate to us, but its not like we're under some different covenant. Most of what Jesus said was said to his disciples in the flesh. Most of that still applies to us. Anyways, I digress.
                    I understand your fear here, and I understand some people take these paradigms too far. The way I look at it - some things in the Bible are specific instructions to specific people (like Philemon is written to... Philemon, giving him specific instructions), but that doesn't mean we just ignore everything there - it means we look for the underlying principles at hand and apply these in our own situations. For example, when Paul tells slaves to be content in their situation, we don't have to just ignore it just because we don't have slavery in America - it can be used to tell people in situations like a thankless, dead-end job that they can still be content in Christ. (The idea of just totally writing off a book like 1 Peter is ludicrous.)

                    I think many people already follow this when they interpret Paul's instructions to women about head coverings to mean "don't dress like a harlot to church".
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I understand your fear here, and I understand some people take these paradigms too far. The way I look at it - some things in the Bible are specific instructions to specific people (like Philemon is written to... Philemon, giving him specific instructions), but that doesn't mean we just ignore everything there - it means we look for the underlying principles at hand and apply these in our own situations. For example, when Paul tells slaves to be content in their situation, we don't have to just ignore it just because we don't have slavery in America - it can be used to tell people in situations like a thankless, dead-end job that they can still be content in Christ. (The idea of just totally writing off a book like 1 Peter is ludicrous.)

                      I think many people already follow this when they interpret Paul's instructions to women about head coverings to mean "don't dress like a harlot to church".
                      I think that's pretty much right on. And when Jesus tells his disciples that if you obey me, you are my friend, then I think that, even if he wasn't speaking directly to us, we can still apply that principle to our relationship with him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I think that's pretty much right on. And when Jesus tells his disciples that if you obey me, you are my friend, then I think that, even if he wasn't speaking directly to us, we can still apply that principle to our relationship with him.
                        Especially if Chapter 1 says "and this includes a certain Tweb poster who goes by 'Adrift'".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          The one with Mark Lanier?
                          I am sorry for not responding sooner Nick, I didn't see your question. And yes, I was referring to Paul Beaumont. I called him "nominal" due to his phrasings of doubt and because I lean towards accepting the Preservation of the Saints.
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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