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Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?

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  • Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?

    Are we getting caught up in paganism? https://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/2...ate-christmas/

  • #2
    Didn't JPH write an ebook on this?
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes. I included a link to it in there.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm not so sure I agree with one of the points you make, here:
        Source: Deeper Waters

        A more reliable text can be found in the Stromata of Clement of Alexandria who lived around the same time.

        And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon. And the followers of Basilides hold the day of his baptism as a festival, spending the night before in readings.

        Now some might say the Genesis here really equals March 25th. Isn’t this a problem? Nope. This would be conception instead having Jesus thus be born nine months later. More on this can be found here.

        © Copyright Original Source

        I'm not sure I understand the connection you're implying, here. Clement of Alexandria says that Jesus' birth occurred on the 25th Day of Pachon, in the 28th year of Augustus. Converted to the Julian calendar, that gives us May 20th, 19 BCE. Not only does this not match the March 25th date which you cite, but it stands in stark contrast to Luke's account, which places Jesus' birth during the governorship of Quirinius (at least 6 AD).
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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        • #5
          Not being an expert in Greek, I'll rely on Ben Witherington. When he was on my show, he made a statement about the timing of the census and said Luke could be making a statement about an event that took place, perhaps a lesser census, before the great census under Quirinius in around 6 A.D.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            Not being an expert in Greek, I'll rely on Ben Witherington. When he was on my show, he made a statement about the timing of the census and said Luke could be making a statement about an event that took place, perhaps a lesser census, before the great census under Quirinius in around 6 A.D.
            I'm not sure I buy that, given that Luke 2:2 explicitly states that he was talking about the first census to take place during the governorship of Quirinius. I'll have to listen to that particular show to see how Dr. Witherington argues for that.

            However, that wasn't really my main point. I was more interested in why the quote from Clement's Stromateis was relevant to a discussion of the March 25th date for Jesus' conception. Clement says that Jesus was born on May 20th, 19 BCE. That has nothing to do with either March 25th or December 25th (though, interestingly, it is Pachon 25).
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              I'm not sure I buy that, given that Luke 2:2 explicitly states that he was talking about the first census to take place during the governorship of Quirinius. I'll have to listen to that particular show to see how Dr. Witherington argues for that.

              However, that wasn't really my main point. I was more interested in why the quote from Clement's Stromateis was relevant to a discussion of the March 25th date for Jesus' conception. Clement says that Jesus was born on May 20th, 19 BCE. That has nothing to do with either March 25th or December 25th (though, interestingly, it is Pachon 25).
              Do you have a source on that?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                Do you have a source on that?
                Argh, sorry. I had a complete brain fart, on Augustus' regnal dating. It would actually be 2 BCE. However, I had the conversion of Egyptian months to Julian months correct. The Egyptian calendar began on August 30th in the Julian. Each Egyptian month was precisely 30 days, with five epagomenae after the twelfth month (six in a leap year). Pachon was the ninth month of the calendar, and Pachon 1 corresponded to April 26 in the Julian. Therefore, Pachon 25 was May 20.

                http://egypt.online-resourcen.de/Dat...Roman_Emperors
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd have to check on the claim about the calendar. That's all I was wondering about.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    I'd have to check on the claim about the calendar. That's all I was wondering about.
                    No worries. I do want to make sure that I'm not providing misinformation (hence, my profuse apologies in regards to my regnal date miscalc), so I'll try to find a scholarly Egyptological source to confirm what I've been saying, here.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For the time being, I've removed it anyway. It's not essential to the piece.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        For the time being, I've removed it anyway. It's not essential to the piece.
                        Cool. I did manage to find a scholarly Egyptological source to confirm the conversion from Egyptian to Julian dates. An entry in the Lexicon der Ägyptologie Volume III (1980), written by Jürgen von Beckerath and entitled "Kalender," confirms what I had written. The Egyptian calendar consisted of twelve months, with each month containing precisely 30 days, followed by 5 epagomenal days (or 6 in interalary years). From the time of Augustus onward, the first day of the Egyptian year, Thot 1, corresponded to the Julian date of August 30. Pachon was the ninth month, which means that Pachon 25 would be the 265th day of the year, corresponding to May 20th.

                        http://www.libreka.de/9783447021005/...FnZXBhZ2U9MTYy
                        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                        Comment

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