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Why I Reject a Natural/Supernatural Distinction

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  • #31
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Yes, of course, as long as we understand that we are speaking analogically (if we accept Thomistic theological terminology) or otherwise acknowledge the limitations of human language and knowledge and the transcendence of God. For example, we might say that God exists or that God is good, but do we really think that we can fully comprehend God's goodness or the nature of his existence?
    So, we can say that God exists and that God is good, but "exists" and "good" in this sense don't mean the same thing that we mean when we use those words to describe other things, and we cannot define what "exists" and "good" mean in regards to God?
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
      So, we can say that God exists and that God is good, but "exists" and "good" in this sense don't mean the same thing that we mean when we use those words to describe other things, and we cannot define what "exists" and "good" mean in regards to God?
      I would more or less go along with that, but probably with some qualification that we have some sense of what God's goodness is, just not an ability to define or comprehend it fully.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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      • #33
        I can understand the difficulty of defining 'goodness', but doesn't the question of existence seem rather binary?
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #34
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I can understand the difficulty of defining 'goodness', but doesn't the question of existence seem rather binary?
          Not when applied to God. Perhaps not even when applied to some subatomic particles, energy fields, and the fabric of space.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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          • #35
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            Yes, of course, as long as we understand that we are speaking analogically (if we accept Thomistic theological terminology) or otherwise acknowledge the limitations of human language and knowledge and the transcendence of God. For example, we might say that God exists or that God is good, but do we really think that we can fully comprehend God's goodness or the nature of his existence?
            If the only statements we can make about God are analogical wouldn't it be true for that statement as well? I'm having a hard time figuring out where you base a foundation on a faith built on only analogies metaphors and parables.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              “Elements, atoms, protons and quarks” etc are all components of the material universe. This has no bearing upon AP’s definition of the non-material God as "divine simplicity”.
              True, but it still works by analogy. My point is, even without a God, an indivisible substance is not an incoherent notion.
              O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

              A neat video of dead languages!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                If the only statements we can make about God are analogical wouldn't it be true for that statement as well? I'm having a hard time figuring out where you base a foundation on a faith built on only analogies metaphors and parables.
                And I have trouble basing my faith on anything less, ie, merely human words and constructs that do not at least point to a greater reality.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  And here, the first cell came into being.
                  That begs the question. Whether or not abiogenisis by natural means is possible, God could still be in control of it. Theistic evolution works the same way without invoking a bunch of miracles.
                  O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                  A neat video of dead languages!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                    So, we can say that God exists and that God is good, but "exists" and "good" in this sense don't mean the same thing that we mean when we use those words to describe other things, and we cannot define what "exists" and "good" mean in regards to God?
                    Well, if you look at it apophatically, we can say that "God is not nonexistent" and "God is not evil," so we're still tethered to some notion of what those opposites might mean. But we can't begin to understand all that existence, goodness, etc. might mean when applied to God. I like St. Gregory Palamas' analogy in this regard. The rays of the sun contain something of the sun and transmit this into us when they warm us and shine upon us, but they are not the same as the sun itself.
                    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                    A neat video of dead languages!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                      That begs the question. Whether or not abiogenisis by natural means is possible, God could still be in control of it. Theistic evolution works the same way without invoking a bunch of miracles.

                      I was poking fun at the holes in naturalistic accounts.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        Any combination goes against divine simplicity. Angels are simple in that they are essence + existence, but they are not absolutely simple like God is. God is existence = essence.
                        How can you have pure existence with no properties, though? This is beginning to sound like Plotinus (the ultimate being is pure existence, the next emanation down is pure self-awareness, etc).
                        O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                        A neat video of dead languages!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post

                          I was poking fun at the holes in naturalistic accounts.
                          Oh. Sorry, I misunderstood you.
                          O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                          A neat video of dead languages!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            If the only statements we can make about God are analogical wouldn't it be true for that statement as well? I'm having a hard time figuring out where you base a foundation on a faith built on only analogies metaphors and parables.
                            Language is to a great extent analogical.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                              How can you have pure existence with no properties, though? This is beginning to sound like Plotinus (the ultimate being is pure existence, the next emanation down is pure self-awareness, etc).
                              Kelp, it is not meaningful to argue as though God were a part of the created universe. That is just what you are doing here.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                                How can you have pure existence with no properties, though? This is beginning to sound like Plotinus (the ultimate being is pure existence, the next emanation down is pure self-awareness, etc).
                                It is true that apophatic theology has sometimes been closely related to neo-Platonic systems of thought.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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