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Is God Petty?

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  • Is God Petty?

    Turn or burn?

    The link can be found here.

    -----

    Is it wrong for God to expect us to worship Him? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Last night, I found myself in a discussion about the question of how can people be happy in Heaven knowing that they have loved ones in Hell. As the discussion went on, I focused on one point which got us to a different area. I pointed out that if Jesus rose from the dead, then Christianity is true and there is an answer to the question. If not, then it's just trivia. I could even be willing to say "I don't know" but it would be foolish to say "I'm abandoning Christianity because while I'm convinced Jesus rose from the dead, I don't have an answer on this question."

    Instead, we wound up discussing if God is petty or not. After all, God expects us to love Him and worship Him. Wouldn't a loving God just give everyone a break? Life has enough suffering as it is. Isn't it petty to have the whole turn or burn mindset?

    Keep in mind, my view of Heaven and Hell is quite different. Still, it is a question we all have to deal with. Even those who profess conditional immortality would have to answer how it is they can be happy if they know they have loved ones who they will never ever see again.*

    Yet now, I want to focus on the whole charge of God being petty, because it is something we come up against. On the surface, it does look that way. God wants us to worship and adore Him. If we don't, we are cast aside from Him. Loved ones are separated in that sense. How does this make sense?

    Part of our problem is we have a view of God where we just make God a big person. He is just like us, except He has the omni-attributes. If you're going to study this, you need to realize that God is very different. Whatever the view of God is we have in our mind, it's in some way inadequate.*

    Second, we need to ask people where they are getting their theology from. If you make claims about God, how do you know this? If you think God is fair and loving and things of that sort, how is this known? Any claim about knowledge of God needs to be backed. If one wants to turn the question to me, it's my position that if Jesus rose from the dead, He's someone worth listening to and I do believe the Gospels are reliable.

    So let's look at the question. For one thing, at the start, Christians were always exclusive. This was even the case when they gained nothing from it. They were on the outs with the Roman Empire and with the Jewish people as well because they said Jesus was the true Lord of the universe.

    We often think love cannot be exclusive. This is false. Not only is love exclusive, it has to be exclusive. If you love anything, you will exclude that which is contrary to it. This is one reason I don't like "hate" being described always as a negative. Hate is not always bad. There are plenty of things we ought to hate. We ought to hate the great evils that we see in the world.*

    When it comes to the question of God, there are benefits for loving God. There is nothing wrong with this. If a man and a woman love each other, then in a marriage bond, there are benefits they share that others don't have. There is nothing mercenary about that.*

    Likewise, if you do not have that commitment, then you do not get the privileges of the commitment. Other people, including other men, can love my wife in some sense, but they are not to love her in the exclusive sense that I do and only I get the benefits of that kind of love. If they had made a covenant instead, they would be having those privileges instead of me.*

    There are also costs in the case of God. If one rejects the revelation of Jesus knowingly, then one is in essence not only saying Jesus is a liar, but saying that God has not revealed Himself in Jesus. That's a big claim and one had better be right on. On the other hand, if someone like myself is wrong, then I am guilty of the worst kind of blasphemy against God. I have to be willing to accept that.*

    If one does not accept God's way, then one is going their own way. It is a rejection of God. If they don't want to be with God, then God will honor their request. He will not force Himself on them.

    Many of us also assume that we are innocent. It's not that way at all. No one of us lives a perfect life. We all know that. We all know ways we can do better. God could have just been just and said none of us will be with Him for eternity. He did not.*

    We also have to ask that if God is going to be loving and forgive all, then what about evil here? Will there never be justice? Do those who lived their lives consistently going against God get all the benefits of those who did the exact opposite?

    Once again, all of this depends on if Jesus rose from the dead. If He didn't, then we could be discussing trivia. We might just have to see if another religion is true or if God revealed Himself some other way or just hope for the best. It is a tough situation then.

    But if Jesus did rise from the dead, then we do indeed have great hope. We are forgiven and we will be in the presence of God. Not only that, all the suffering we undergo will be redeemed one day. God does not waste our sufferings in this life. Death itself will be overcome.

    That is good news.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    You didn't actually explain the claim that "God demands worship from us or sends us to hell for not worshiping him." You just explained why love is exclusive.

    Comment


    • #3
      God has no pleasure in the eternal punishment of the lost (Ezekiel 18:32).

      It should be noted that only those whose names are not found in the book of life perish (Revelation 20:15).

      And from the stand point that Christ paid for the sins of all mankind (1 John 2:2) - everyone's name would have been initially placed in His book.

      God's condition is that we need to come as children (Mark 10:15, John 3:3, John 1:12-13).
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You didn't actually explain the claim that "God demands worship from us or sends us to hell for not worshiping him." You just explained why love is exclusive.
        I was thinking I had, but I can expound some more on another day.

        Comment


        • #5
          It is true that many religious questions of a technical nature about God, heaven, hell, the afterlife and so on are unanswerable. You can only think and talk about yourself and how you would react in any particular circumstances.

          Most people would see straight away that they would be miserable if they were in heaven while their loved ones were in hell. How does that fact inform your opinion about the nature of heaven?
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            Is God Petty?

            Well if you are talking about the Christian notion of god, then yeah, not only petty, but I think evil, and obviously ignorant of the fallible nature of the human beings he is said to love.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              I was thinking I had, but I can expound some more on another day.
              I just went through this with Tassman in another thread. The claim that God demands worship or he sends us to hell is a strawman. God neither demands us worship him, nor does he send us to hell if we don't. We are sent to hell for our sins. And we worship him because we love him and he deserves glory and honor and obedience, so you did cover why we worship him, but not that he isn't sitting up there giving us an ultimatum "worship or hell!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I just went through this with Tassman in another thread. The claim that God demands worship or he sends us to hell is a strawman. God neither demands us worship him, nor does he send us to hell if we don't. We are sent to hell for our sins. And we worship him because we love him and he deserves glory and honor and obedience, so you did cover why we worship him, but not that he isn't sitting up there giving us an ultimatum "worship or hell!"
                Wrong, it is not a straw man. God sets the rules, so the idea that you either believe in god or go to Hell for your sins is a direct result of gods rule, either believe in him or be sent to hell. You agree that we all sin, therefore the reason some sinners go to heaven, and some other sinners go to hell, is because of their belief or disbelief in god, not because of their sins.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sorry, I agree with Sparko here. I don't think you addressed that particular argument at all.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Sorry, I agree with Sparko here. I don't think you addressed that particular argument at all.
                    Sparko says we are sent to hell for our sins, are those who go to heaven sent there for their lack of sins as well? Of course not. Can't have it both ways, well you can if what you have is only in your mind, but if those who go to heaven are sent their because of their belief, then those who go to hell are sent there because of there non-belief.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Sparko says we are sent to hell for our sins, are those who go to heaven sent there for their lack of sins as well? Of course not. Can't have it both ways, well you can if what you have is only in your mind, but if those who go to heaven are sent their because of their belief, then those who go to hell are sent there because of there non-belief.
                      I don't have a problem with saying that people are sent to hell for unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19, especially verse 19, uses an Old Testament analogy to warn against unbelief. It doesn't actually come out and say "unbelief will send you to hell" but it seems to be the very implication. In any event, even using the principle that sin is what sends you to hell, would not unbelief be one of those sins?
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        I don't have a problem with saying that people are sent to hell for unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19, especially verse 19, uses an Old Testament analogy to warn against unbelief. It doesn't actually come out and say "unbelief will send you to hell" but it seems to be the very implication. In any event, even using the principle that sin is what sends you to hell, would not unbelief be one of those sins?
                        No, belief and disbelief are based upon ones intellect, and their evaluation of the evidence. People are not perfect, we can and do in all honesty come to different conclusions concerning many different things. Atheists don't disbelieve in god because they hate god, or because they're disobedient, or any of that nonsense that believers love to acuse them of, they simply disbelieve because they are being honest with themselves. To believe that a loving god would send people to hell simply for being honest concerning the conclusions they come to is really rather silly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Is God Petty?

                          Well if you are talking about the Christian notion of god, then yeah, not only petty, but I think evil, and obviously ignorant of the fallible nature of the human beings he is said to love.
                          Seriously. What do you understand is the Christian claim for God providing salvation for everyone? And why do you think that is petty?

                          It is only those whose names are not [, that is no longer,] in the book of life that perish (Revelation 20:15).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Wrong, it is not a straw man. God sets the rules, so the idea that you either believe in god or go to Hell for your sins is a direct result of gods rule, either believe in him or be sent to hell. You agree that we all sin, therefore the reason some sinners go to heaven, and some other sinners go to hell, is because of their belief or disbelief in god, not because of their sins.
                            um of course God sets the rules. But the rules are based on his nature. God is perfect so any "rules" he sets is based on that perfect nature. And again you are perfectly free to not believe in God and go about your life and not sin and you would still end up in heaven. So disbelief is not what sends you to hell. At least not directly. If you don't believe you can't accept salvation and you will have to pay for your sins. And sinning is what sends you to hell.

                            But I am not going to go into this with you again JimL. You already know all this because I went over it several times with you. You are just trolling. badly.
                            Last edited by Sparko; 04-16-2018, 08:08 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Sparko says we are sent to hell for our sins, are those who go to heaven sent there for their lack of sins as well? Of course not. Can't have it both ways, well you can if what you have is only in your mind, but if those who go to heaven are sent their because of their belief, then those who go to hell are sent there because of there non-belief.
                              You are not even on the correct topic here JimL. Take it back to the other thread. This thread is about whether God demands worship or not.

                              Comment

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