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Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6

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  • Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6

    Time to start.

    -------------------

    Is 1 Cor. 8:6 a Trinitarian text? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    In light of my blog on 1 Cor. 8:6, I was challenged to go through a paper by Andrew Perry that can be found here. So I did go through and sadly, much of what I saw from someone who is no fool on the topic was still going by the same mistakes many anti-Trinitarians make. Let's dive in and see what i saw.
    Wright says that it has an “apparently extraordinary ‘high’
    christology” and it is a “Christian redefinition of the Jewish confession of faith, the Shema”. This remark
    shows that Wright (and it is true of others4) is conducting his analysis within the socio-historic context of
    Jewish Monotheism in the Second Temple period. He (and it is true of others) is not considering the text
    just within the context of inspired Scripture, i.e. what text means within the context supplied by the Spirit
    alone. This narrower and different context of appraisal generates the questions: does the Spirit present
    Deut 6:4 as a ‘Jewish’ confession of faith or rather a proclamation of divine revelation? Would the Spirit
    ‘redefine’ its own presentation in Deut 6:4?

    One wonders how it is that one is supposed to know what the Spirit, which here is listed as an "it" is saying. Does Perry alone have this insight or is it just that no Trinitarian has it? Has Wright committed a major flaw in actually going to the socio-historical context to understand the text? Could it be that Paul did not write in a vacuum but that Jews actually did some thinking about the Old Testament from the ending of the Jewish canon to the time of Jesus?

    And if they did, could it perhaps be beneficial to us to look at that? Yes it could be, but Perry will have none of that. This reminds me greatly of Francis Beckwith's statement that if they can't win with logic, they will trump with spirituality.

    This also assumes that the Shema has been redefined in an evangelical understanding of 1 Cor. 8:6. It has not been. The Shema is still a statement of monotheism. Instead, Jesus is being included in that monotheistic context. Were the Shema changed into a statement of ditheism, yes, that would be a change, but that is not what is going on here.
    The intertextuality of the NT with the OT is so vast and any intertextuality with
    contemporary Jewish and non-Jewish literature so tiny that the method of bring extra-Biblical parallels to
    bear must take second place.

    Tiny? Not at all. Are we to assume that in all those Jewish writings, they didn't really have anything much to say about the Shema, the defining statement of Jewish monotheism? On the one hand, we have it that this was supposed to be a defining doctrine of Israel. On the other hand, the references to it would be tiny.
    The flow of ethical argument in this part of the Corinthians’ letter is also not essential for a discussion of
    how Christological Monotheism reads 1 Cor 8:6. The situation in Corinth and the teaching about
    knowledge which Paul was opposing is addressed by a statement with two main clauses: one that is
    monotheistic and one that is about the Lord Jesus Christ. To say that there are two clauses, only one of
    which is monotheistic, is to take the opposite position to Christological Monotheism, and it doesn’t
    depend on any particular view about the situation in Corinth regarding food offered to idols. This is our
    ‘critical’ argument against Christological Monotheism. Hence, we are characterizing the position of this
    paper as ‘monotheistic Christology’.

    Yet the argument from us is that all of the clauses here are monotheistic. If they are not, then it is not the Shema. As soon as Perry presents it any other way, then he is not really engaging with the argument as is from the evangelical perspective. He can say that to interpret his position is opposite of Christological monotheism, but it seems to boil down to "This position is wrong because it disagrees with my position." That only works if you establish your own position.

    In looking at 1 Cor. 8:6, Perry says that the proposal is:
    “Any Greek-speaking Jew who hears a Christian say what 1 Cor 8:6 says is
    bound to hear those words as a claim that Yhwh is now somehow identified with Jesus Christ.” Such a
    proposition, without evidence in Second Temple writings from Greek-speaking Jews, is of little value as it
    stands.

    First off, I thought that the Second Temple writings didn't matter. Now supposedly a silence from them does matter. Which is it?

    Second, what is actually supposed to be said in these writings? Are we to expect Greek Jews outside of the apostles were talking about Jesus? However, if the question is could the Jews conceive of someone being in this kind of position, the answer is yes.

    If you asked the Jews how God made the world, they would tell you through Wisdom. This is seen in Proverbs 8 especially. The extra irony to this is that this is a passage ancient and modern-day Arians point to to say Jesus is a creation. However, what do Jewish writings say about Wisdom? Let's go to the Wisdom of Solomon starting at chapter 9 verse 9.
    With you is wisdom, she who knows your works
    and was present when you made the world;
    she understands what is pleasing in your sight
    and what is right according to your commandments.
    10 Send her forth from the holy heavens,
    and from the throne of your glory send her,
    that she may labor at my side
    and that I may learn what is pleasing to you.
    11 For she knows and understands all things,
    and she will guide me wisely in my actions
    and guard me with her glory.
    12 Then my works will be acceptable,
    and I shall judge your people justly
    and shall be worthy of the throne of my father.
    13 For who can learn the counsel of God?
    Or who can discern what the Lord wills?
    14 For the reasoning of mortals is worthless,
    and our designs are likely to fail,
    15 for a perishable body weighs down the soul,
    and this earthy tent burdens the thoughtful mind.
    16 We can hardly guess at what is on earth,
    and what is at hand we find with labor,
    but who has traced out what is in the heavens?
    17 Who has learned your counsel
    unless you have given wisdom
    and sent your holy spirit from on high?
    18 And thus the paths of those on earth were set right,
    and people were taught what pleases you
    and were saved by wisdom.”

    No doubt, Wisdom is being referred to here. Yet let's look at what happens in the next chapter.

    Starting at verse 18:
    She brought them over the Red Sea
    and led them through deep waters,
    19 but she drowned their enemies
    and cast them up from the depth of the sea.
    20 Therefore the righteous plundered the ungodly;
    they sang hymns, O Lord, to your holy name
    and praised with one accord your defending hand,
    21 for wisdom opened the mouths of those who were mute
    and made the tongues of infants speak clearly.

    Beg your pardon?

    Wisdom did that? Isn't that what God did in the Old Testament? Indeed. It also doesn't say God by His Wisdom did X. It said Wisdom did this. At the same time, there is still an idea of the Lord being praised. Go ahead and keep reading and you can ask "Is this praising Wisdom or the Lord?" Not only that, but if we look at the last verse quoted above, we can see a parallel to Exodus 4:11.
    Then the Lord said to him, “Who gives speech to mortals? Who makes them mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

    All of this needs to be taken into consideration. One cannot just say "Well, the Wisdom of Solomon isn't in the Bible" (I realize some Christians do have it in theirs, but for those who do not, that does not mean we can disregard it even if we don't view it as Scripture.). Data is data. The Bible was not written in a vacuum.

    One more point for tonight. Perry goes on to say this:
    A more plausible proposal would be that a Greek-speaking Jew would see an allusion in Paul’s words to
    the Shema in, for example, ‘God’, ‘us/our’ and ‘one’, but it is not obvious that Yhwh is to be identified
    with Jesus Christ. Rather, the descriptive aspect of ‘our God’ and ‘one’ is picked up by ‘to us...one
    God’, which therefore in turn identifies ‘the Father’ as Yhwh rather than Jesus Christ. Further, the
    counting aspect of Paul’s conjoined statements, ‘one...and one’, rather militates against the interpretation
    that Christ is being placed within the identity of the one God of Israel. The Shema has a single
    occurrence of ‘one’ whereas 1 Cor 8:6 has two occurrences. Finally, if we accept Wright’s claim, we still
    have to do the work of saying what we mean by ‘included within the identity of the one God of Israel’ –
    this could be explained as simply as the indwelling of God’s Spirit rather than anything more complicated,
    say, such as a recognition of an incarnation.

    But if Kurios is a reference to YHWH in the Shema and it is applied to Jesus here, then yes, Jesus is being identified as the Lord in the Shema. The problem with making a divide is ultimately, you can say Jesus isn't the one God, but then you have to say that YHWH isn't the one Lord. If anyone is guilty of dividing the Shema and splitting it, it is the anti-Trinitarian.

    Do we still have to do the work of explaining what is meant by being included in the divine identity? Yes. And? Having to do the work of explaining the concept isn't a problem. Saying the indwelling of God's Spirit is quite complicated. There were plenty of people in the Old and New Testaments that were said to be indwelled with the Spirit of God. Are they to be included in the Shema because of that?

    We will continue with more of this next time.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)
    Is 1 Cor. 8:6 a Trinitarian text? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. In light of my blog on 1 Cor. 8:6, I was challenged to go through a paper by Andrew Perry that can be found here. So I did go through and sadly, much of what I saw from someone … Continue reading Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6 Part 1

  • #2
    Unless Andrew Perry is trying to say that Paul claimed the Father is not a Christian's lord, only Christ is, there seems to be a slight problem with double-think in his assessment.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      Part 2

      ------------

      Is Jesus in the divine identity? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.
      So let’s just jump right back into it.

      Wright asserts that Paul has taken kurios from Deut 6:4, but offers no argumentation for this proposal.
      He then concludes, “There can be no mistake: just as in Philippians 2 and Colossians 1, Paul has placed
      Jesus within an explicit statement, drawn from the Old Testament’s quarry of emphatically monotheistic
      texts…producing what we can only call a sort of christological monotheism.” We have criticized
      Wright’s exegesis of Colossians 1 and Philippians 2 in previous articles, but only Philippians 2 uses a
      characteristic monotheistic OT text (Isa 45:23). We might agree that Phil 2:10 places Jesus within the same
      eschatological situation as Yahweh in Isa 45:23, but placement within a situation is not the same as
      inclusion within the divine identity and so Wright’s comparison is false.

      This seems to be too easy a dismissal of Wright. YHWH is the one who won’t share His name with another and for all the talk that Perry made last time about there being no parallel to the Shema for Jesus, can he find a parallel where everyone else bows at another name besides that of God? If it works one way, it ought to work the other way too.

      The case for the christological monotheist is based around the claim that kyrios is picking up ‘Yhwh’ from
      Deut 6:4 and using this name for Christ, thus identifying Jesus with Yhwh in some sense. The first
      counter-argument to this claim is that, even if Paul is picking up ‘Yhwh’ from Deuteronomy, bearing the
      name ‘Yhwh’ doesn’t imply an identification of Jesus with Yhwh. This is shown in two ways: first, the
      name that is above every name was given22 to Christ by God (Phil 2:9); and secondly, the name was also
      given to the Angel of the Lord who led Israel through the wilderness (“My name is in him”, Exod 23:21).

      For the first objection, this is an assumption of unipersonalism whereby if a name is given, then that person cannot be in the identity, but this is not explained why. Jesus is given this name as a public vindication of what He had done publicly. Had He not done a public act, He would not have been known in this way.

      For the second, I have regularly pointed to the Angel of the Lord as a Trinitarian precursor. He acts in ways that only God can act. He is the one speaking in Exodus 3. He appears to Hagar in Genesis 16 and she refers to Him as the God who sees me. Rather than demonstrating the point is incorrect, Perry is actually with this demonstrating the point is highly accurate!

      The Angel of the Lord is a type of Christ leading his people through the wilderness. In the same way that
      he bore the name, so too Christ bears the name. Hence, any basis there might be in the possession of this
      name for identifying Jesus with Yhwh would also apply to the Angel of the Lord. Yet the Angel of the
      Lord is distinguished from Yhwh in the same way that Paul distinguishes ‘one…and one’ in 1 Cor 8:6.

      Obviously, great scholars like Bauckham and Wright never noticed that there was a distinguishing here. The Angel of the Lord is often treated as YHWH, but yet somehow is seen as a servant of YHWH. Consider how in Genesis 19:24 we read that YHWH on Earth rained down fire and brimstone from YHWH out of Heaven. If you come in with the assumption that God must be unipersonal, you have to read the texts in a way to avoid any plurality in the Godhead. If you dismiss that, you must remain open to the idea that perhaps God is a unique being in a sense that He is multipersonal while we are unipersonal.

      However, before we reach this conclusion, we should ask, as a second counter-argument, whether
      kyrios in 1 Cor 8:6 is actually picking up ‘Yhwh’ from Deut 6:4 in the first place. ‘Yhwh’ is a proper name,
      but kyrios in 1 Cor 8:6 is not being used here as a proxy for this proper name precisely because it is
      modified by ‘one’. The ‘one’ is in a semantic contract with the ‘many’ of v. 5, which in turn has the
      plural of kyrios. This in turn brings that plural into a semantic contract with the singular of v. 6. Thus,
      because the plural is functioning as a descriptive title, so too kyrios in v. 6 is functioning as a title and not
      as a proxy for the name ‘Yhwh’. Accordingly, we can observe a symmetry between the two clauses: just as
      ‘God’ is not a proper name in ‘one God’ so too ‘Lord’ is not serving as a proxy for a proper name in ‘one
      Lord’.

      I am unclear as to what difference this makes. It is as if Perry is treating YHWH as a personal name. (By the way, aren’t all names given to someone?) Paul is making a contrasting statement indeed saying that the pagans have many gods and many lords, but we only have one. If he submits two different beings here, then he has a sort of ditheism going on. If he has one God with at least two persons here as both are in the divine nature somehow, then he does not.

      Even if we went to the Shema, saying Lord as a proper name wouldn’t make sense. Did the Jews need to know there was only one YHWH? Even when they were living in idolatry, they could say there was one YHWH, but there was also one Asherah, one Molech, etc. Yet if they say there is one God and one Lord and those are combined, then they have monotheism.

      If the first clause, ‘there is one God, the Father’, is monotheistic, what type of clause is ‘there is one Lord,
      Jesus Christ’? Is it possible to have a god and a lord within a scriptural faith? Is this conjoining of the Father and the Son so innovative that it redefines Scriptural Monotheism and Jewish Monotheism? Is the
      associative partnership implicit in ‘of whom are all things’ (the Father) and ‘by whom are all things’ (the
      Son) actually (or still) monotheistic?

      But this is just begging the question. It is saying that if we go with the understanding of Bauckham and Wright and Capes and others, then we are redefining monotheism. It’s kind of hard to redefine a term that means “There is only one God.” The Trinity necessarily has it that there is only one God. Perry also since he is refusing to look at intertestamental literature is ignoring any data that Jews had to the contrary in pre-Christian thinking. Once again, if anything is redefining it, it is somehow having Jesus being a being that is separate and yet somehow Lord. By framing the Shema in this way, Paul is saying that you can’t have one without the other. If the Son is exclusively Lord, then the Father is not, but if the Father is exclusively God, the Son is not. Putting them both in the same identity avoids the problem.

      Our two clause reading of 1 Cor 8:6 is immune to Bauckham’s reasoning for Christological Monotheism.
      He says, “there can be no doubt that the addition of a unique Lord to the unique God of the Shema‘
      would flatly contradict the uniqueness of the latter…The only possible way to understand Paul as
      maintaining monotheism is to understand him to be including Jesus in the unique identity of the one God
      affirmed in the Shema‘.” All we have to observe here is that the second clause is not ‘adding to’ the ‘one’
      of the monotheism in the first clause and that ‘one…and one’ does add up to two! We do not have to
      maintain Paul’s monotheism by deploying a late-20c. theological construct like ‘included in the divine
      identity’. We can maintain his monotheism by confining his avowal of monotheism to the first clause.

      The language is 20th century, but is the idea? That is the question. We could just as well ask if anyone in the time of Paul was going around talking about Christological monotheism like Perry is. Would that invalidate his case? Absolutely not.

      One and one does indeed add to two. So you either have two persons in the divine identity, or you have two beings, one distinctively God, but then the other must be distinctively Lord. If this is the Shema then, it is Perry that is dividing it and not Bauckham.

      We will continue next time.

      In Christ,
      Nick Peters
      (And I affirm the virgin birth)
      Is Jesus in the divine identity? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. So let’s just jump right back into it. Wright asserts that Paul has taken kurios from Deut 6:4, but offers no argumentation for this proposal.He then concludes, “There can be no mistake: just as in Philippians 2 and Colossians 1, Paul … Continue reading Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6 Part 2

      Comment


      • #4
        Part 3

        ------------------

        What about the Shema? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

        Perry begins this section with this:
        J. W. Adey comments, “The ‘one God’ of Biblical revelation is a single ‘person’ God, the Father only,
        unambiguously unitarian or monotheistic…” The Shema would seem to be a clear expression of that
        monotheism. The singleness of God is not about his (compound) unity, but about there being a sole
        God.

        We all agree that the Shema refers to one God, but thus far, that does not equal one person in the one God. I have long said that the biggest mistake Arians make is the assumption of unipersonalism. Every Trinitarian agrees that there is one God.
        Christological Monotheism holds that Jesus is included within the divine identity of the God of Israel. As
        a second move it affirms a continual adherence on the part of Paul to Jewish Monotheism. The two
        propositions introduce a confusion into the definition of monotheism between what is one and unity.
        Jewish (as well as scriptural) Monotheism is not about unity but about there being a single God. The
        compound unity of the Father and the Son is not informative for Paul’s use of the Shema

        Perry can say all he wants that this introduces a confusion, but what is meant? If he means hard to understand, that applies to most everything about God. God is omniscient and people have free-will. God is eternal and acts in time. Now if he could show something was a contradiction, that would be a problem, but thus far, he hasn’t. If his point is that there is a sole God, then he is not arguing against Christological monothiesm. We hold to that.
        This observation introduces a requirement for Christological Monotheism: it needs to show that
        ‘inclusion within the divine identity’ is actually relevant to a characterization of ‘monotheism’. The contrary
        challenge is that we can characterize Jewish Monot heism, Scriptural Monotheism and Pauline
        Monotheism, referring to the singleness of God, as well as showing that Jesus is included within the
        divine identity of the God of Israel – but without this being a matter of monotheism and instead being a
        matter of cosmology. The drive to have ‘inclusive identity’ part of a definition of monotheism seems
        anachronistic and based in the needs of Christian theology rather than an accurate description of NT
        history.

        Even if Perry was right about motives, so what? The data is what matters. Besides that, the assumption is that the later Fathers got a Christology in mind and then went back and plugged that into the New Testament. Maybe, just maybe, they read it out of the New Testament?
        If we want to be faithful to the etymology ‘mono/theism’ (mo,noj/qeo,j), then we should include the
        following Pauline ‘mono’ texts ‘only God’ (1 Tim 1:17; cf. Jude v. 25) and ‘only Sovereign…who only has
        immortality’ (1 Tim 6:15-16). These texts, coupled with the distinction between the Son and the invisible
        God in Colossians, gives us a consistent monotheistic pattern in Paul’s thought that doesn’t include the
        Son.

        Yet a Christological monotheist can say the Son is included in the divine identity and so when we speak of the only God, then that is what is going on. Does Perry do the same though when we get to Jude 4 and Jesus is our only Lord? Based on what is said here, if Perry interprets that the same way, then the Father cannot be our Lord.
        We should ask whether it is possible for the Shema to be rewritten or rearranged so as to include Jesus Christ
        within the divine identity of the God of Israel. The question here is whether the semantics of ‘one’ (dxa,
        ́eHäd) in the Shema allow this possibility. Our argument is that they do not, because ‘one’ is about
        singleness and not unity whereas ‘inclusion within the divine identity’ is about unity, i.e. requires a sense
        corresponding to ‘unity’ in the Shema.

        Okay. Let’s see then.
        A quotation of the Shema in Zech 14:9 assists this analysis.
        And Yahweh shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be Yahweh one, and his name
        one. Zech 14:9 (KJV revised)
        Adey comments on this text, “the way
        ́HD qualifies Yahweh and ‘Yahweh’ in Zech 14:9, classifying but not
        (it is said) identifying, connects and complies syntactically and semantically with reading
        ́HD as a numeral
        ‘one’ in the Shema.”35 And a further quotation,
        Have we not all one father? Hath not one God ( ́ē
        l) created us? (Mal 2:10 KJV)
        Adey’s comment on this text is, “The singularity of ‘God’ is further emphasized by the grammatically
        singular form ́ēl”.36 The singleness of Yahweh is also seen in the complementary statements that God is
        alone God or that Yahweh is alone Yahweh (2 Kgs 19:15, 19; Neh 9:6; Ps 83:18).

        And the problem is? I don’t see it. We all affirm that there is one God. What is the problem?
        Where ́eHäd might be used for ‘oneness’ or ‘unity’, then there is a two that remains two, as for example in
        the case of “the two shall be one flesh” (Gen 2:24). Adey observes,
        “…whilst ‘one’ in the appropriate context may be transposed into a metaphoric sense as ‘unity’
        (‘oneness’), dismantling ‘one’ as ‘unity’ does not end up with ‘one’ (thing). ‘Unity’ requires at least two (parts or persons) for its meaning. In Deut 6:4 the only theistic party is Yahweh. The text has
        none other that is God but He, and this justifies asserting that the given four semantic units in the
        Shemastatement are insufficient to provide for or even evoke the concept of (some pluraloneness
        as) unity.

        And again, I don’t see the problem here. Unity requires at least two. That’s what we have. At least two persons. Thus, God can be a unified one since He has three persons.

        That’s all to say about the Shema for now. Let’s see what comes up next time.

        In Christ,
        Nick Peters
        (And I affirm the virgin birth)
        What about the Shema? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. Perry begins this section with this: J. W. Adey comments, “The ‘one God’ of Biblical revelation is a single ‘person’ God, the Father only,unambiguously unitarian or monotheistic…” The Shema would seem to be a clear expression of thatmonotheism. The singleness of God is … Continue reading Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6 Part 3

        Comment


        • #5
          I swear these people get their definition of the word trinity from DC Comics!
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #6
            Part 4

            ---------------

            Is Jesus YHWH? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

            What dose it mean to say Jesus is included in the divine identity?
            If we consider relative identity (‘a is the same F as b’),45 it doesn’t seem that this framework will give us
            an understanding for inclusive identity. Logically, two are one (the same) relative to their satisfying a
            categorical predicate (‘the same F’; Fido and Pooch are the same breed’). Does Paul think that Jesus is the
            same God as Yahweh? One doubt would be that he distinguishes them in terms of ‘God the Father and
            the Lord Jesus Christ’. However, putting this doubt aside, if Paul believed that they were the same God,
            this doesn’t necessarily imply that he is ‘including’ Jesus in the divine identity of Yahweh/God of Israel

            Yet Perry never seems to define what is meant by this. Do we mean they are the same God? If you mean they are the same person, then no. I am not surprised that Jesus is differentiated from the Father. If anything, this convinces me. They needed two different ways to speak of them to avoid confusion.

            The language of the divine nature deals with this. There are two persons at least that share the divine nature. Again, what that is needs to be fleshed out for us, but for the ancient audience in a high-context society familiar with Jewish thought, that would have been much better understood.
            If we think of shared identity or group identity, these are examples of ‘inclusive’ identity. We might say
            ‘a is a member of the same class as b’. There are many gods and many lords and these would be classes in
            which we might place the God of Israel and the Lord Jesus Christ. Putting it in this way, doesn’t
            obviously include Jesus in the class of many gods, but rather the class of many lords. In fact, 1 Cor 8:6
            doesn’t lend itself to an inclusivity thesis, since Paul would seem to affirm that the “to–us” class of gods
            has only one member and likewise the “to–us” class of lords. He assigns deity to the Father and lordship
            to Jesus

            IF Perry goes with this, then he would have to deny that the Father is Lord since the Father is not in the class of Lords but Jesus is. If Jesus not being in the category of gods means He cannot have the divine nature, then the Father not being included in the category of lords means He cannot have the nature of Lord. Is there any Jew that would remotely think that possible?
            It is one thing to claim that Paul includes Jesus within the divine identity of the God of Israel; it is another
            thing to show this worked out in his writing. We have noted the declarative quality of Christological
            Monotheism. For example, we might ask whether (for Paul) it was God the Father that included Jesus
            within his identity. If this were the case, and suppose that he did so through the bestowal of his Spirit
            upon Jesus, does this have any implication as regards intrinsic deity in respect of Jesus? If Jesus is
            included within the divine identity of the God of Israel, is the identity nevertheless still retained by the
            God of Israel as his identity in such an inclusion?

            Perry is responding more to adoptionism in this case than to Trinitarianism. First off, there is nothing that says Paul has to work this all out in his writing. In his society, his listeners would be expected to work that out and know the background knowledge to do that. Perry wants an ancient writing to read like a modern one.

            Next time, we will look at some verses that seem to identify Jesus with YHWH in the New Testament.

            In Christ,
            Nick Peters
            (And I affirm the virgin birth)
            Is Jesus YHWH? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. What dose it mean to say Jesus is included in the divine identity? If we consider relative identity (‘a is the same F as b’),45 it doesn’t seem that this framework will give usan understanding for inclusive identity. Logically, two are one (the … Continue reading Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6 Part 4

            Comment


            • #7
              Part 5

              --------------

              Does Jesus just represent the Father? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

              In this section, Perry claims that the best way to speak of Jesus is as one who has the name of YHWH not because He is YHWH, but because He is representing YHWH.
              The best sense for ‘included within the divine identity’ is representative identity – i.e. where someone
              represents (acts for) someone else.
              Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
              that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
              under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is kyrios, to the glory of God
              the Father. Phil 2:9-11 (KJV revised); cf. Rom 14:1

              First off, it’s noteworthy that in this passage, everything bows down to Jesus and to God, meaning that there is a differentiation going on between Jesus and everything else save the Father. Some of you astute readers will be thinking that Paul is quoting Isaiah here. We are about to get to that.
              The name given to Jesus that is above every name is not the common Jewish name of ‘Jesus’ but that of
              ‘Yhwh’. As we have noted above, the type for this is the giving of the name to the Angel of the Lord.
              This framework of name-bearing is indicative of representation (acting/speaking50 in someone’s name).
              This is clear from the example of the Angel of the Lord where God instructs that the people were to obey
              his voice because “my name is in/with him” (Exod 23:21). The identity here is representative, one in
              which someone represents the authority and the will of another. As such, it does not confuse the persons
              of God and the Angel of the Lord. We can, if we want, gloss this kind of identity as an ‘inclusive’ identity:
              the representative is part of the identity of the one represented.

              Nothing is said of what if someone does think the Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Christ and actually an appearance of YHWH? There are numerous occasions in the Old Testament where someone talks to the Angel of the Lord and it is as if they are speaking to God. There are also times the Angel speaks as if He is God, notably in Exodus 3. Perry in a footnote says the prophets represented God, which is true, but no one ever confused Isaiah for YHWH.
              Paul quotes Isa 45:23 in Phil 2:9-11 which, while ‘anthropomorphic’, is quite specific in its personal
              language: ‘my mouth’ and ‘unto me’ – this singular language doesn’t seem to offer much room for others
              to receive obeisance.
              I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
              that unto me (yl yk) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23 KJV)
              Commentators assume that bowing ‘at the name of Jesus’ is equivalent to bowing before Jesus alone. It is
              as if their exegesis drops ‘the name’ from their consideration of what Paul is saying. However, if you bow
              ‘at the name’ and that name is ‘Yhwh’, then Yahweh is involved as an indirect recipient of the obeisance
              when the one being bowed to is a representative.

              Absent is any mention of “I will not share my glory with another” from Isaiah 42:8. However, if Philippians says everyone bows at the name of Jesus and everyone is to bow to YHWH, it’s easy to make that parallel. It’s practically hard to avoid it.
              In general, insofar as Christ does the same thing his Father does, the same action predicates are applied to
              them both. For example,
              To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at
              the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess 3:13 (KJV)
              …and kyrios my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5 (KJV)

              Yet this is not saying Jesus is doing the same action of YHWH. YHWH never comes to the Earth except at the end of Revelation and then it is the marriage of Heaven and Earth. It is Jesus that is coming to the Earth. Again, Paul is making a one-to-one parallel.
              This allusion is an example of Yhwh texts that describe God acting on behalf of his people in the land.
              The language of Yahweh coming in the person of another is seen, for example, in the case of the Arm of
              the Lord (Isa 40:3; 10; 51:9; 53:1; John 12:38). This is God being manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) and
              fulfilling his own declaration, ‘I will be who I will be’ (Exod 3:1460). That God is manifest in someone on
              the ground is indicated by the prediction that ‘his feet’ would stand on the Mount of Olives. As Adey
              observes, “A Biblical criterion of being the true God is that God’s identity can be depicted by another”.
              The predicates of action are equally applicable to Yahweh as they are to the person on the ground.
              There are criteria of application for these predicates which are satisfied by Yahweh and the person on
              the ground. The point here is not that the person bears the name ‘Yhwh’, nor that they necessarily
              represent Yahweh (pace foreign potentates brought against Israel), though this may be true: the point is
              that God is manifesting himself in someone through the Spirit – their actions are the actions of God. In
              this sense, that person is included in an identity with God (and vice-versa) but without any confusion of
              persons.

              The fact that some people can possibly have a confusion of persons shows why Paul wrote the way he did, regularly saying theos for the Father and kurios for the Lord Jesus. Of course, it would be difficult to describe in many ways, but the solution is not to change the doctrine, but to change the language the best we can. Yet what happens if someone says contrary to what Perry thinks about this?
              Fletcher-Louis states, “Time and again we find divine action or functions ascribed to Christ in a way that
              now makes sense if Christ belongs within the divine identity and if he fully participates in the divine
              nature.” What we need to question here is the ‘fully participates in the divine nature’. This sounds like
              theologically motivated eisegesis designed to support later church doctrine.

              Unfortunately, Perry doesn’t question it. It is fine to question what it means and that would be a great discussion to have, but his response is “It sounds like theologically motivated eisegesis designed to support later church doctrine.” Obviously, Perry is free from any theological motivations whatsoever. Suppose I said “Perry’s writing sounds like theologically motivated eisegesis in order to avoid a doctrine he disagrees with.” Could I be right? Sure. Is that an argument to reject Perry? Not at all. The motivations don’t matter. The data does.
              The framework for understanding the same divine action being attributed to God and to Christ is
              representative. This is clear from the use of ‘parentheses’ in Paul,
              Now God himself and our Father, (even our Lord Jesus Christ), direct our way unto you. 1 Thess
              3:11 (KJV revised); cf. 2 Thess 3:5
              The singular verb ‘to direct’ is attached to the subject ‘God’ as shown by the emphasis ‘himself’, but the
              guidance is through the Lord Jesus, as shown by the ‘even’ sense of the conjunction. Paul uses the same
              construction for emphasis in 1 Thess 5:23, “May the God of peace himself (Auvto.j de. o` qeo.j) sanctify you
              wholly”, and 1 Cor 8:6 makes the relationship clear: spiritual things are of the Father but through the Son
              (see below).

              When I look at 2 Thess. 3:5, it’s hard to find a translation besides the KJV that translates it this way. The majority don’t have a problem. Looking at the other translations, it looks that Paul is asking that the audience be directed to qualities of the Father and of the Son, but it would not be as if these were mutually exclusive to one or the other. Consider this for an example:

              May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.

              Are we to think that if you want love, you go to the Father, but if you want perseverance, you go to the Son? Now granted, the Son is the only one who has been incarnate and persevered in suffering, but we are also told that God is patient with us. I doubt Perry would also question that the Son has love for us.

              As for from the Father and through the Son, I agree with this. This is because I see Jesus as God’s Wisdom. This does not remove Jesus from the divine nature.
              The singular verb attaches to the emphasized subject, God the Father, but the parenthesis provides a
              substitution for the reader, a device which therefore does not contravene the normal grammar of noun-verb agreement.66 Fletcher-Louis’ grammatical analysis is therefore wrong “two persons grammatically
              expressed as one acting subject”. It is rather, two grammatical subjects (one primary, one secondary)
              available for one action verb.

              And Perry can win this battle and lose the war. I don’t have a problem with this in my view of Jesus. It’s also something that really makes sense to me seeing as I don’t hold to unipersonalism.

              Next time, we will discuss typological identity.

              In Christ,
              Nick Peters
              (And I affirm the virgin birth)

              Comment


              • #8
                Part 7

                -----------------

                Are those verses really about Jesus? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

                In this section, Perry asks if some passages are really about Jesus. Let’s go through them.
                The use of Joel 2:32 in Rom 10:13.
                That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, ‘Lord Jesus’, and shalt believe in thine heart that God
                hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved…For there is no difference between the Jew
                and the Greek: for the same lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Whosoever shall call
                upon the name kyrios shall be saved. Rom 10:9-13 (KJV revised)
                On the basis of the mention of the Lord Jesus in v. 9, it is assumed that ‘same lord over all’ and ‘call upon
                the name kyrios’ equally refer to Jesus. Hence, Capes avers, “Since ku,rioj refers to Jesus in 10:9, he
                probably had Jesus in mind here also.”

                And this seems quite accurate to me, but what does Perry say?
                An allusion or echo of Joel 2:32 exists in, “with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ
                our Lord” (1 Cor 1:2). This places Jesus into the position of the saviour that Yahweh occupies in the
                ‘calling’ of Joel 2:32. It could be used to support the claim of Capes about Rom 10:13 but, equally, we
                should observe that the name ‘Yhwh’ is not referenced in 1 Cor 1:2. Since salvation is a matter of God working through Jesus, the appeal for salvation can be described directly in terms of Joel 2:32 and
                Yahweh or in allusive terms referring to Christ.

                An allusion? It’s an outright quote. Paul doesn’t speak of Jesus as a representative. He speaks of Him as the Lord. The name YHWH is not referenced in 1 Cor. 1:2? What of it? We have Romans 10:9 right there and right next to it 10:13. Wouldn’t that be a better go-to?
                The expression ‘lord of all’ evokes God’s rule over the nations (Jew and Greek). In 1 Chron 29:11-12,
                Yahweh is ‘head above all’ (LXX has, differently, ‘lord of all’) and ‘riches’ are also said to come from him
                in this text. These two points of contact suggest that Paul is quoting from this prayer, but it is also
                common enough to address Yahweh in these terms (e.g. 2 Chron 20:6).
                This in turn suggests that the use of Joel 2:32 is also a reference to Yahweh – ‘calling upon the name of
                the Lord’. This is a specific refrain74 in the Jewish Scriptures for invoking God to act as a saviour, see the
                table below for examples.

                Yet if we turned to Romans 9:5, we get that Jesus is God over all. The problem Perry has ultimately is “Well, if we take this and read it this way and look at it this way, it could possibly refer to this.” Maybe, but why should I pick that over the traditional interpretation that countless exegetes have said instead?
                Another example of commentators mistaking identity is the quotation of Jer 9:23-24 in 1 Cor 1:31,
                That, according as it is written, ‘He that glorieth, let him glory in kyrios’. 1 Cor 1:31 (KJV); cf. 2 Cor
                10:17
                Thus saith Yhwh, ‘Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his
                might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he
                understandeth and knoweth me, that I am Yhwh which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and
                righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight’, saith Yhwh Jer 9:23-24 (KJV revised)
                The principal actor in Paul’s treatise in 1 Cor 1:19-31 is God: God destroys (v. 19); he brings to nothing
                (v. 19); he has made (v. 20); he saves (v. 21); he chooses (vv. 27-28); and he makes (v. 30). Christ is the
                ‘object’ in the discourse – the ‘Wisdom of God’. It follows that v. 31 is a simple use of kyrios for ‘Yhwh’
                and that the believer is to boast in God’s acts. Accordingly, Capes is simply wrong to conclude, “As indicated by his description of Christ’s work in 1:30, Paul quoted this Yahweh text (ku,riojin LXX,hwhy
                in the Hebrew text) and applied it to Christ.”On the contrary, in v. 30 Christ is God’s work! The
                boasting is related to the acts of God.

                Yet again, what is the problem here? If we say Jesus is the Wisdom of God, then this fits with it. You can either glory in the Father at the work of Jesus or glory in Jesus that He is the one through whom the Father acts and either one works with a Trinitarian mindset.

                So getting back to 1 Cor. 8:6, Perry says:
                1 Corinthians 8:6 distinguishes God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ with its prepositional
                statements. If we compare these to 1 Cor 10:26, they disambiguate Paul’s quotation: the earth is ‘of the
                Lord’ (tou/ kuri,ou) and it is God the Father ‘from whom’ or ‘out of whom’ are all things (evx ou–).

                And again, reading this from a Wisdom approach, what is the problem? This is exactly what I would expect.

                While Perry goes in, I really don’t see anything interacting with this Wisdom approach.

                We shall continue next time.

                In Christ,
                Nick Peters
                (And I affirm the virgin birth)
                Are those verses really about Jesus? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. In this section, Perry asks if some passages are really about Jesus. Let’s go through them. The use of Joel 2:32 in Rom 10:13.That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, ‘Lord Jesus’, and shalt believe in thine heart that … Continue reading Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6 Part 7

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                  Part 7

                  -----------------

                  Are those verses really about Jesus? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

                  In this section, Perry asks if some passages are really about Jesus. Let’s go through them.
                  The use of Joel 2:32 in Rom 10:13.
                  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, ‘Lord Jesus’, and shalt believe in thine heart that God
                  hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved…For there is no difference between the Jew
                  and the Greek: for the same lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Whosoever shall call
                  upon the name kyrios shall be saved. Rom 10:9-13 (KJV revised)
                  On the basis of the mention of the Lord Jesus in v. 9, it is assumed that ‘same lord over all’ and ‘call upon
                  the name kyrios’ equally refer to Jesus. Hence, Capes avers, “Since ku,rioj refers to Jesus in 10:9, he
                  probably had Jesus in mind here also.”

                  And this seems quite accurate to me, but what does Perry say?
                  An allusion or echo of Joel 2:32 exists in, “with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ
                  our Lord” (1 Cor 1:2). This places Jesus into the position of the saviour that Yahweh occupies in the
                  ‘calling’ of Joel 2:32. It could be used to support the claim of Capes about Rom 10:13 but, equally, we
                  should observe that the name ‘Yhwh’ is not referenced in 1 Cor 1:2. Since salvation is a matter of God working through Jesus, the appeal for salvation can be described directly in terms of Joel 2:32 and
                  Yahweh or in allusive terms referring to Christ.

                  An allusion? It’s an outright quote. Paul doesn’t speak of Jesus as a representative. He speaks of Him as the Lord. The name YHWH is not referenced in 1 Cor. 1:2? What of it? We have Romans 10:9 right there and right next to it 10:13. Wouldn’t that be a better go-to?
                  The expression ‘lord of all’ evokes God’s rule over the nations (Jew and Greek). In 1 Chron 29:11-12,
                  Yahweh is ‘head above all’ (LXX has, differently, ‘lord of all’) and ‘riches’ are also said to come from him
                  in this text. These two points of contact suggest that Paul is quoting from this prayer, but it is also
                  common enough to address Yahweh in these terms (e.g. 2 Chron 20:6).
                  This in turn suggests that the use of Joel 2:32 is also a reference to Yahweh – ‘calling upon the name of
                  the Lord’. This is a specific refrain74 in the Jewish Scriptures for invoking God to act as a saviour, see the
                  table below for examples.

                  Yet if we turned to Romans 9:5, we get that Jesus is God over all. The problem Perry has ultimately is “Well, if we take this and read it this way and look at it this way, it could possibly refer to this.” Maybe, but why should I pick that over the traditional interpretation that countless exegetes have said instead?
                  Another example of commentators mistaking identity is the quotation of Jer 9:23-24 in 1 Cor 1:31,
                  That, according as it is written, ‘He that glorieth, let him glory in kyrios’. 1 Cor 1:31 (KJV); cf. 2 Cor
                  10:17
                  Thus saith Yhwh, ‘Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his
                  might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he
                  understandeth and knoweth me, that I am Yhwh which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and
                  righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight’, saith Yhwh Jer 9:23-24 (KJV revised)
                  The principal actor in Paul’s treatise in 1 Cor 1:19-31 is God: God destroys (v. 19); he brings to nothing
                  (v. 19); he has made (v. 20); he saves (v. 21); he chooses (vv. 27-28); and he makes (v. 30). Christ is the
                  ‘object’ in the discourse – the ‘Wisdom of God’. It follows that v. 31 is a simple use of kyrios for ‘Yhwh’
                  and that the believer is to boast in God’s acts. Accordingly, Capes is simply wrong to conclude, “As indicated by his description of Christ’s work in 1:30, Paul quoted this Yahweh text (ku,riojin LXX,hwhy
                  in the Hebrew text) and applied it to Christ.”On the contrary, in v. 30 Christ is God’s work! The
                  boasting is related to the acts of God.

                  Yet again, what is the problem here? If we say Jesus is the Wisdom of God, then this fits with it. You can either glory in the Father at the work of Jesus or glory in Jesus that He is the one through whom the Father acts and either one works with a Trinitarian mindset.

                  So getting back to 1 Cor. 8:6, Perry says:
                  1 Corinthians 8:6 distinguishes God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ with its prepositional
                  statements. If we compare these to 1 Cor 10:26, they disambiguate Paul’s quotation: the earth is ‘of the
                  Lord’ (tou/ kuri,ou) and it is God the Father ‘from whom’ or ‘out of whom’ are all things (evx ou–).

                  And again, reading this from a Wisdom approach, what is the problem? This is exactly what I would expect.

                  While Perry goes in, I really don’t see anything interacting with this Wisdom approach.

                  We shall continue next time.

                  In Christ,
                  Nick Peters
                  (And I affirm the virgin birth)
                  Could you unpack, "Jesus is the wisdom of God." On first fact, that would be incorrect if you are making the usual call to identifying Christ as Wisdom (presented in poetical works as a "person" and created being).

                  Romans 9:5 is a good call, and one that I had not noticed.

                  In 1Cor 10:26, the lord referred to would appear to be Christ, continuing from 1Cor 10:22-23, where the lord is clearly Christ.

                  You can either glory in the Father at the work of Jesus or glory in Jesus that He is the one through whom the Father acts and either one works with a Trinitarian mindset.


                  It works with some concepts of Trinity, certainly.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Part 8

                    ------------------

                    Is Jesus God’s Wisdom? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

                    In these replies, I have been contending that Jesus is God’s Wisdom. Today, we’re going to look into that a little bit more.
                    The most common interpretation of ‘all things’ in 1 Cor 8:6 is that this embraces the Genesis creation and
                    that the Son is being placed as the one through whom that creation came into being – “through/by
                    whom are all things”.
                    But to us there is one God, the Father, out of whom are85 all things, and we to/for him; and
                    one Lord Jesus Christ, through/by whom are all things, and we through/by him. 1 Cor 8:6
                    (KJV revised)

                    Yes. This is the most common interpretation and that’s for good reason. It makes sense of the passage. This is especially clear when you get to chapter 10 still about meat offered to idols and are told that the Earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. (1 Cor. 10:25-26)

                    But Perry says:
                    J. Murphy-O’Conner discusses cosmological readings of 1 Cor 8:6, showing how they are often based
                    on extra-Biblical comparisons with parallel texts that have ‘all things’ being of one God but through an
                    agent such as Wisdom or the Logos. He notes example philosophical texts from the Stoics and Philo, but
                    several Second Temple religious texts can be adduced for Wisdom having a role in creation. One
                    argument for a cosmological reading is that all things come from God, and so food comes from God, and
                    is acceptable. The problem with the argument is that vv. 1-7 is directed to those who already have this
                    knowledge; it is not directed to those who need persuasion. Another argument is a comparison with 1
                    Cor 11:12 where Paul states “but all things are of God”. However, it is not certain that Paul is making a
                    point here about creation; he could be making a contrast with the new creation as with 2 Cor 5:18 (“But
                    all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ”). If we exclude creation as the
                    topic of v. 6, then the parallel between Christ and Wisdom vis-à-vis creative agency is diminished.

                    Naturally, Perry is not interacting with Second Temple thought, but he says that if Paul is saying this, then it seems that it would be something that they didn’t know. Well, by this standard, let’s point out some other things they didn’t know in the letter.

                    1 Cor. 11:23-26:

                    23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

                    1 Cor. 15:3-7:

                    3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles

                    So by Perry’s argument then, this material that Paul says he passed on to them, they would not have known about. Why present something they already knew?

                    Or maybe, just maybe, Paul is using what they already know to make a point….

                    We can certainly say if we exclude creation, then the Wisdom argument is diminished, but what difference does new creation make to Paul’s argument? Paul is talking about how to interact in this creation, not the new one. Does Perry think there will be meat for sale from pagan markets in the new creation?
                    The competing interpretation is soteriological. Within 1 Corinthians, Paul uses ‘all things’ to embrace
                    different concepts. First, he says that the spiritual man judges all things (1 Cor 2:10-16). Such a person is
                    the recipient of the Spirit from God who works ‘all things in all’ (1 Cor 12:6; Eph 1:23) – all these things
                    are distributed throughout the body in terms of the spiritual gifts (‘spiritual things’, 1 Cor 12:1ff). All
                    things are for the believers so that the abundance of grace might be spread to all (Rom 8:28, 31-32; 2 Cor
                    4:14-15). This is why all things are ‘new’ in the new creation (2 Cor 5:17-18). Secondly, and politically, the
                    day will come when God will put all things under the feet of Christ, and after fulfilling his work, Christ
                    will deliver all things to the Father (1 Cor 15:27-28; Eph 1:10-11). Of these two uses of ‘all things’, 1 Cor
                    8:6 would fall into the first category of ‘spiritual things’ because Paul is talking about knowledge in 1
                    Corinthians 8.88 Christians judge, not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

                    But this faces the same problem. Paul throughout the section is talking about this creation. Why think the context has switched so spiritual matters when the question is about meat in the marketplace?
                    The underlying point here is that ‘all things’ is a common enough way to talk generally. Elsewhere, Paul
                    will refer to thrones, rulers, lordships and authorities as ‘all things’ (Col 1:16); he will comment that he has
                    suffered the loss of all things (Phil 3:8); and in his Mars Hill speech, Paul declares that God gives all
                    things to all. The ‘all things’ of 1 Cor 8:6 are the gifts of the Spirit which are ‘of’ the Father but ‘through’
                    Jesus Christ (e.g. Eph 2:18; Tit 3:5-6).

                    Perry has thrown this out without a reason why I should accept it. At this point, Hitchens’s Razor applies. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Perry has given me no reason to take his claim seriously and I see plenty to the contrary.
                    There is a further point of contrast with the cosmological reading. Paul states that believers are
                    ‘through/by’ Jesus Christ – this is a reference to the new creation of men and women in Christ (Rom 6:11,
                    23; 2 Cor 5:17; Col 1:20; Gal 3:14; 6:15), who in turn receive the spiritual gifts. Paul’s point is based in the
                    present and not the past of the Genesis creation.

                    And when did those present things come about? Oh yes. In the Genesis creation. Paul is pointing to the beginning and the order God established. How else could He have done this?

                    Thus I conclude this paper thoroughly unpersuaded, at least of Perry’s point. If anything, I am more persuaded that the more traditional reading is the correct one.

                    In Christ,
                    Nick Peters
                    (And I affirm the virgin birth)
                    Is Jesus God’s Wisdom? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. In these replies, I have been contending that Jesus is God’s Wisdom. Today, we’re going to look into that a little bit more. The most common interpretation of ‘all things’ in 1 Cor 8:6 is that this embraces the Genesis creation andthat … Continue reading Andrew Perry on 1 Cor. 8:6 Part 8

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Could you unpack, "Jesus is the wisdom of God." On first fact, that would be incorrect if you are making the usual call to identifying Christ as Wisdom (presented in poetical works as a "person" and created being).

                      Romans 9:5 is a good call, and one that I had not noticed.

                      In 1Cor 10:26, the lord referred to would appear to be Christ, continuing from 1Cor 10:22-23, where the lord is clearly Christ.

                      You can either glory in the Father at the work of Jesus or glory in Jesus that He is the one through whom the Father acts and either one works with a Trinitarian mindset.


                      It works with some concepts of Trinity, certainly.
                      This is a Tektonics article on Jesus as God's Wisdom.

                      https://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaim...itydefense.php

                      Comment

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