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Motion in the First Way

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Why?


    So what do you think the universe is expanding into then. Do you think our universe is floating around or expanding within some other kind of space because if not then you need to explain what you mean by the "nothing" outside of the universe.



    By that logic nothing could ever exist within an infinite universe. But I don't think that the exact nature of infinite universes and time are truly understood even by physicists to make the positive claim you're asserting. If there is no time outside of our universe of time, then what constitutes an event or an infinite past number of events. Time and events would have nothing to do with the infinite universe, they would only have meaning within a spacetime universe and not outside of it. That's my own thought of course, I don't know, im just philosophizing here, but I don't think it's necessarily cut and dry as you, as the Kalam argument assumes it to be.



    No, I don't think it's as valid because one, we have no evidence of anything coming from nothing and if it is created, having nothing in it from its source, then it has come from nothing. If on the other hand our universe emerged from a greater cosmos then it can't be said to come from nothing because it has something of its source within it itself.
    God is not "nothing" - Since nothing can come from nothing, then it would take something to create our universe. God creating the universe is that something. You think that something is another universe, but then you have to ask where that universe came from, and if that is another universe then where that one came from, and so on. You again run into the problem of infinite regression of past events which cannot exist. The only logical answer would be that God is infinite and eternal and he created the universe. Which is explained in the Kalam Cosmological Argument. The only way an eternal cause could create the universe is if that eternal cause is intelligent and makes a decision to create it.




    Oh, I just remembered. If you think that God is what exists outside of our universe, does that mean that you think our universe is expanding into God? Sounds silly I know, but that kinda sounds like what youre saying.
    no. God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere inside and outside the universe. Outside could be what we call "Heaven"

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    That is a nonsense question.
    Why?

    And I never said that there was nothing outside our universe
    So what do you think the universe is expanding into then. Do you think our universe is floating around or expanding within some other kind of space because if not then you need to explain what you mean by the "nothing" outside of the universe.

    I said that there can't be an infinite past number of events that lead up to today. Because if that were true then the universe as we know it today would not exist, it would have died of entropy maximizing an infinity of time ago.
    By that logic nothing could ever exist within an infinite universe. But I don't think that the exact nature of infinite universes and time are truly understood even by physicists to make the positive claim you're asserting. If there is no time outside of our universe of time, then what constitutes an event or an infinite past number of events. Time and events would have nothing to do with the infinite universe, they would only have meaning within a spacetime universe and not outside of it. That's my own thought of course, I don't know, im just philosophizing here, but I don't think it's necessarily cut and dry as you, as the Kalam argument assumes it to be.

    Personally, I believe what is outside of our universe is God. I know you don't believe that, but it is just as valid as imagining some other universe outside of ours randomly farting out our universe.
    No, I don't think it's as valid because one, we have no evidence of anything coming from nothing and if it is created, having nothing in it from its source, then it has come from nothing. If on the other hand our universe emerged from a greater cosmos then it can't be said to come from nothing because it has something of its source within it itself.



    Imagining infinite universes burping out other infinite universes is just as much "believing in magic" as believing in God, JimL. There is no evidence for those universes. They are just as made up as you think God is.
    See above.


    Read the Kalam Cosmological Argument. It is a good logical argument for our universe being created by an intelligent and deliberate act.
    It is a good argument, i think, and i'll have to read it again, it's been quite some time since I first read it. But it may be based on false assumptions, i dont know.


    Oh, I just remembered. If you think that God is what exists outside of our universe, does that mean that you think our universe is expanding into God? Sounds silly I know, but that kinda sounds like what youre saying.
    Last edited by JimL; 12-08-2023, 06:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    So, you think that the universe is finite, that our spacetime is all that there is to it, and that there is "nothing" (whatever that would mean) outside of spacetime? What happens if you are at the edge of our finite spacetime and tried to put your hand through it to the outside. I mean just hypothetically speaking, what do you mean by this "nothingness". I don't believe there is any such thing as absolute nothingness since I don't think that the idea of nothingness can even be conceived of.
    That is a nonsense question. And I never said that there was nothing outside our universe. I said that there can't be an infinite past number of events that lead up to today. Because if that were true then the universe as we know it today would not exist, it would have died of entropy maximizing an infinity of time ago. Personally, I believe what is outside of our universe is God. I know you don't believe that, but it is just as valid as imagining some other universe outside of ours randomly farting out our universe.



    But again, I don't believe in the reality of magic, well, because magic isnt reality, and to believe that a diety, as the Bible asserts, caused something to come into existence from out of nothing would be to believe in the reality of magic. The facts aren't known, but there is no good reason to believe in the reality of magic, or of the concept of nothingness being a reality.

    Thanks for the link though I'll be sure to read up on the Kalam-Cosmological argument.
    Imagining infinite universes burping out other infinite universes is just as much "believing in magic" as believing in God, JimL. There is no evidence for those universes. They are just as made up as you think God is.

    Read the Kalam Cosmological Argument. It is a good logical argument for our universe being created by an intelligent and deliberate act.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Currently the prevailing theory is that the universe is flat. Meaning it will continue expanding forever. Your idea, that it would collapse back into a singularity is thought to be impossible based on the current data (see: https://www.astronomy.com/science/wh...-the-universe/ )

    If the universe keeps expanding, it will eventually reach a state of maximum entropy where work can no longer occur (energy is useless) and matter will continue to spread apart forever. Which would have already occurred if there was an infinite past.


    Gee you sound like a theist, JimL. You are right, nothing can come from nothing. You should read the Kalam Cosmological Argument. It not only makes the case that nothing can come from nothing but that everything has a cause so there must be a first cause, and that the first cause must be intelligent. And that an actual infinity of past time cannot exist. Everything we have been discussing here. It is a very interesting read. Here is a link if you are interested:

    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...gical-argument


    So, you think that the universe is finite, that our spacetime is all that there is to it, and that there is "nothing" (whatever that would mean) outside of spacetime? What happens if you are at the edge of our finite spacetime and tried to put your hand through it to the outside. I mean just hypothetically speaking, what do you mean by this "nothingness". I don't believe there is any such thing as absolute nothingness since I don't think that the idea of nothingness can even be conceived of.
    But again, I don't believe in the reality of magic, well, because magic isnt reality, and to believe that a diety, as the Bible asserts, caused something to come into existence from out of nothing would be to believe in the reality of magic. The facts aren't known, but there is no good reason to believe in the reality of magic, or of the concept of nothingness being a reality.

    Thanks for the link though I'll be sure to read up on the Kalam-Cosmological argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    So, what do you think happens when the universe stops expanding, when, as you say, it's spread out to near infinity? Do you think spacetime itself becomes a state of what physicists call nothing?
    Currently the prevailing theory is that the universe is flat. Meaning it will continue expanding forever. Your idea, that it would collapse back into a singularity is thought to be impossible based on the current data (see: https://www.astronomy.com/science/wh...-the-universe/ )

    If the universe keeps expanding, it will eventually reach a state of maximum entropy where work can no longer occur (energy is useless) and matter will continue to spread apart forever. Which would have already occurred if there was an infinite past.


    No thing comes from absolutely nothing. There is no evidence of absolute nothingness, and no evidence that any thing can come from such a state. But that is what you claim when you invoke God as its cause. That's a different kind of faith, the faith in creationism, than the faith you say materialists like myself have in the cause of the universe.
    Gee you sound like a theist, JimL. You are right, nothing can come from nothing. You should read the Kalam Cosmological Argument. It not only makes the case that nothing can come from nothing but that everything has a cause so there must be a first cause, and that the first cause must be intelligent. And that an actual infinity of past time cannot exist. Everything we have been discussing here. It is a very interesting read. Here is a link if you are interested:

    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...gical-argument



    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    That is quite an imagination you have there. But sorry, what you said isn't even scientific nor what any scientists believe. The energy in the universe doesn't disappear, it dilutes as space expands. Space time does get created all the time. So as time goes on, all of the fixed energy and matter get spread out more and more. And because of Dark Energy, this process is speeding up as time moves on. At some point in the far future, space will have expanded so much that the particles of matter will be ripped apart into their component parts and be so separated from each other that they can no longer interact. At this point energy can no longer function either and the universe is dead. It can't become a new universe, nor start a new big bang because it will be the complete opposite of a singularity. Instead of all spacetime being compressed into one place, it is spread out to near infinity. Any "outside" universe has nothing to do with that.

    Jim there is no evidence that our universe was created from a previous one. There can't be, because there is no way to see or connect to any other universe. They might come up with a math theory that suggests it is possible, but no way to test it. So functionally any such theory is no better than we Christians claiming that God created the universe. It is simply your "faith" that another universe birthed this one.
    So, what do you think happens when the universe stops expanding, when, as you say, it's spread out to near infinity? Do you think spacetime itself becomes a state of what physicists call nothing? And what then would you say is outside of that state of nothing? More nothing? An infinite expanse of nothing, an infinite expanse of virtual particles popping in and out of existence? Or do you think there is some other kind of state outside of spacetime, some other kind of nothingness. The "Big Bang" didn't necessarily result from a singularity, but it came out of this state of what physicists define as nothingness.
    Exactly how this happened of course isn't known, there are different theory as to the cause of our universe, but we have no evidence that it was created, or spoken into existence. No thing comes from absolutely nothing. There is no evidence of absolute nothingness, and no evidence that any thing can come from such a state. But that is what you claim when you invoke God as its cause. That's a different kind of faith, the faith in creationism, than the faith you say materialists like myself have in the cause of the universe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apologiaphoenix
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    Why do you say the motion is per se?
    The reason Aquinas does. The motion of A is required to be ongoing for B and thus for C and thus for D and on and on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoic
    replied
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

    Which would still have to answer the motion charge, which is per se. If all you have are secondary causes, then how are they changing?
    Why do you say the motion is per se?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    The evidence that we have from this universe is that nothing comes from nothing. This universe didn't come from nothing anymore than did anything in this universe come from nothing. When a thing in this universe decays, that of which it is made does not vanish i.e. matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed. So, what happens to it then? The same with this universe as a whole, when it decays, or as you put it suffers heat death, that energy/matter of which it is made doesn't vanish, it remains always as a part of the greater cosmos out of which it was formed into our universe, and out of which other "big bangs" will occur and new universes will arise ad infinitum.

    Again "energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
    That is quite an imagination you have there. But sorry, what you said isn't even scientific nor what any scientists believe. The energy in the universe doesn't disappear, it dilutes as space expands. Space time does get created all the time. So as time goes on, all of the fixed energy and matter get spread out more and more. And because of Dark Energy, this process is speeding up as time moves on. At some point in the far future, space will have expanded so much that the particles of matter will be ripped apart into their component parts and be so separated from each other that they can no longer interact. At this point energy can no longer function either and the universe is dead. It can't become a new universe, nor start a new big bang because it will be the complete opposite of a singularity. Instead of all spacetime being compressed into one place, it is spread out to near infinity. Any "outside" universe has nothing to do with that.

    Jim there is no evidence that our universe was created from a previous one. There can't be, because there is no way to see or connect to any other universe. They might come up with a math theory that suggests it is possible, but no way to test it. So functionally any such theory is no better than we Christians claiming that God created the universe. It is simply your "faith" that another universe birthed this one.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    No, we were discussing this universe. What happens in another universe has no effect on our universe. Even if our universe were born from a previous one, That still means that time in this universe started at that point. So no infinite time. And there is no evidence for any other universe or metaverse, it is simply a theory with no evidence. No different that me claiming God did it. Instead of God you are imagining another universe "did it"
    The evidence that we have from this universe is that nothing comes from nothing. This universe didn't come from nothing anymore than did anything in this universe come from nothing. When a thing in this universe decays, that of which it is made does not vanish i.e. matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed. So, what happens to it then? The same with this universe as a whole, when it decays, or as you put it suffers heat death, that energy/matter of which it is made doesn't vanish, it remains always as a part of the greater cosmos out of which it was formed into our universe, and out of which other "big bangs" will occur and new universes will arise ad infinitum.

    Again "energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    Perhaps that's because you mistake our universe, the particular spacetime we're aware of, for the greater cosmos out of which it was born.
    No, we were discussing this universe. What happens in another universe has no effect on our universe. Even if our universe were born from a previous one, That still means that time in this universe started at that point. So no infinite time. And there is no evidence for any other universe or metaverse, it is simply a theory with no evidence. No different that me claiming God did it. Instead of God you are imagining another universe "did it"

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    Then the universe should have died of heat death by now, entropy would have increased to maximum by now. An actual infinite past cannot exist.
    Perhaps that's because you mistake our universe, the particular spacetime we're aware of, for the greater cosmos out of which it was born.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    You might be sure of that. I'm not.
    If the entropy is increasing and eventually it will end up as an empty hulk of nothing as scientists seem to think and the evidence points to, then that means if the universe has an infinite past, then enough time has passed where that result should have already happened. You can't have an infinite past and changing entropy. No matter how long it takes entropy would eventually stop increasing when all energy has dispersed as far as possible. And in a universe with infinite time in the past, that would have already happened.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apologiaphoenix
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    I'm not sure there are any per se causes. That is, the universe might just be an infinite regression of per accidens causes.
    Which would still have to answer the motion charge, which is per se. If all you have are secondary causes, then how are they changing?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoic
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    Then the universe should have died of heat death by now, entropy would have increased to maximum by now. An actual infinite past cannot exist.
    You might be sure of that. I'm not.

    Leave a comment:

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