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Do we believe in magic?

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  • Do we believe in magic?

    Are we really scientific?

    ------------

    Is our society more involved in magic than we realize? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    No. This isn’t really about the New Age movement or about witchcraft. This isn’t about reading Harry Potter or watching Sabrina: The Teenaged Witch. This isn’t really about fantasy as fantasy.

    In our day and age, we like to think we are a scientific people. We have abandoned the ways of magic and religion. We only believe in that which can be empirically verified, and by that, we mean scientifically verified, even though the two aren’t identical. All scientific verification is empirical, but the reverse is not so.

    If anything, today we see science as a new priesthood. I do not say this to demean science in the sense of the study of the material world. That is wonderful and that needs to continue. What I do demean is the idea that because someone is a scientist, they are qualified to speak on areas outside their expertise. However, there is also the danger that something can supposedly fall under science, but like scandals of bought priesthood in the past, so a scientific person can be bought off as well.

    The Covid “pandemic” really brought a lot of this to light. At the time, I was not at all worried about it. It was a virus. It would come and it would go like any other virus. I never got caught up in mask hysteria and when I was required to wear one, I took it off as soon as I could. I never practiced social distancing for the virus. If I was doing it, it was generally just because I don’t like being close to people in general. I am also one of those people who never got a vaccine at all.

    And yeah, I’ve never had Covid.

    My parents also never got the vaccines and they’re in their 70s. They each got Covid earlier this year and then within a week of each of them getting it, they were both fine. My rule has been to never get caught up in hysteria where everyone is panicking.

    Many of us now look back and realize that a lot of mistakes were made. The lockdowns were a mistake. Pulling kids out of school was a mistake. Plenty of people are questioning the vaccines and it used to be a conspiracy theory to say the virus came from a lab in Wuhan. Now it’s pretty much established fact.

    A number of us also don’t support climate change hysteria either. When I take any kind of online survey, I can easily answer questions when it comes to environmental claims. It’s not that I don’t care about the planet, but I think that many of our solutions are harmful in the long-term even if we think there are short-term benefits. I would like to see us using nuclear power more and I would like to see the Keystone pipeline open.

    As soon as I say any of this, there are people out there getting their proverbial pitchforks ready. After all, I have questioned the reigning dogma. We have seen that people who do go against whatever the reigning dogma is, particularly today on climate change, are quickly castigated and they are the new heretics.

    “The difference though is science is evidence-based and religion isn’t!”

    Which is entirely a straw man. The evidences are different, but all sides use evidence. Religions tend to use history and philosophy more as well as interpretation of sacred texts and analysis of it by believers and skeptics. Of course, some dogmas can be right, just like in science, and some can be wrong, just like in science.

    One area that this comes to an interesting place is in how we use words. Magic is the idea that one can use words to somehow alter reality. Properly, this isn’t always the case. When a minister says “I now pronounce you husband and wife”, he is doing something his words have the power to affect. There are times when this is not the case.

    Neil DeGrasse Tyson has referred to seeing men’s and women’s bathrooms as segregation. Don’t believe me? Go take a look here. (Warning. This is something unedited so there is language in the video.) It starts around 2:50. Shortly after 4:00, NDT says he sees men and women bathrooms and thinks “Colored and white”.

    Go back twenty years, maybe even ten, and this wouldn’t be being questioned at all. Now NDT acts like it’s segregation. Why? It’s the spirit of the age. It’s where the politics lie.

    I recently shared this picture on my Facebook.



    One of the first replies I got was “Transwomen are women.”

    What is this said today but a mantra? Repeat it enough and it will become true?

    The next worth talking about is I just asked the question “What is a woman?” and got told that the idea of a woman is a societal construct. To which, I gave the reply that the idea that the meaning of woman is a societal construct is itself a societal construct.

    We live in an age where we believe if we declare it to be so, it is. What is it called when someone goes in for a transgender operation? “Gender-affirming care”, when it is really the exact opposite. We have said that we should include couples of the same sex under the label of marriage, but did we stop to ask what marriage is and what it means? Consider also a group like Black Lives Matter. So if you don’t support the group, which is about many many things besides black lives, then you don’t think black lives matter?

    This isn’t science. This is magic.

    Too many of our leading scientists are also leading the way in this. The basic reality of biology would not have been denied until the political climate rolled around and then all of a sudden, we think we know something that no one else before us in history knew. We live in a society where we want to erase differences between men and women, do economic Russian Roulette and think only our intentions matter, and think that if we say the words, we can change reality. We can’t.

    Reality will always win in the end.

    For those in the scientific establishment also, this has only hurt them in the long run. There are more and more people unwilling to trust science when we think that there is a political side to it. If anything, we are not a scientific society. We are anti-science.

    That doesn’t make us like religion in the past. Religion in the past still tried to tether itself to external reality by basing their conclusions on the idea of a supreme being outside the cosmos that created a rational universe and thus made the universe rational. Now, the basis for how we see reality is not without, but it is within. How someone feels about themselves and society determines reality.

    The good news is, this path cannot last long. It will destroy itself.

    The bad news, I have no idea how much it will take out with it when it collapses.

    Let’s be prepared.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)
    Is our society more involved in magic than we realize? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. No. This isn’t really about the New Age movement or about witchcraft. This isn’t about reading Harry Potter or watching Sabrina: The Teenaged Witch. This isn’t really about fantasy as fantasy. In our day and age, … Continue reading Do We Believe In Magic?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    That doesn’t make us like religion in the past. Religion in the past still tried to tether itself to external reality by basing their conclusions on the idea of a supreme being outside the cosmos that created a rational universe and thus made the universe rational.
    Your article can be summed up as "right answer, wrong reason", but this in particular is not true. It is a rather deistic view, and the image it conjures is not even particularly Christian, implying that God sort of surveys things from afar. Religion outside of following the God of Israel is much more about the king of the mountain imposing some sort of order on the chaos of the cosmos, and beseeching the gods to impose some order on one's particular chaos.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Your article can be summed up as "right answer, wrong reason", but this in particular is not true. It is a rather deistic view, and the image it conjures is not even particularly Christian, implying that God sort of surveys things from afar. Religion outside of following the God of Israel is much more about the king of the mountain imposing some sort of order on the chaos of the cosmos, and beseeching the gods to impose some order on one's particular chaos.
      NOt embracing deism at all. This is not about Christianity per se, but just saying that reality still was seen as something external. Why did the Christians and even Muslims for awhile pursue science? Because they believed in one God who made everything and was rational.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        Neil DeGrasse Tyson has referred to seeing men’s and women’s bathrooms as segregation. Don’t believe me? Go take a look here. (Warning. This is something unedited so there is language in the video.) It starts around 2:50. Shortly after 4:00, NDT says he sees men and women bathrooms and thinks “Colored and white”.
        To be fair, NDT was talking about separate school entrances for Boys and Girls, not bathrooms. Bill Maher's interpretation matched yours, but he'd been drinking. NDT should have made it more clear what he meant, but he'd been drinking, too.

        Comment


        • #5
          OP seems fairly run-of-the-mill anti-science in the way that the worst of Christianity has always been... historically anti-gallileo, anti-evolution.... now anti-medicine and anti-biology.

          Conservatives being nut-bars on issues is not justified by saying science is untrustworthy. You don't get to make up your own evidence-free views about the treatment of disease, and about sex, gender, and justify it by attacking science, and pretending your religion somehow justifies the views you've made up for yourself.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            You don't get to make up your own evidence-free views about the treatment of disease, and about sex, gender, and justify it by attacking science, and pretending your religion somehow justifies the views you've made up for yourself.
            Neither do liberals. And they do it all the time. Take the gender identity nonsense.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              OP seems fairly run-of-the-mill anti-science
              [Aquinas was a different thread, mea culpa. No where in the OP is there anything that would be "anti-science".]


              in the way that the worst of Christianity has always been... historically anti-gallileo, anti-evolution....
              Ah yes, Mendel, Newtion, and Lemaître famously know for being "anti-science".


              Regarding the Galileo affair, I would suggest the website "History for Atheists" which is ran by an atheist.


              now anti-medicine and anti-biology.

              Trans nonsense is quite anti-biology. Both HRT and SRS can only affect secondary sex characteristics and not gender itself. The charge of "anti-medicine" is obviously a reference to the rejection of Covidian authoritarians and Covidian corporatists and is hardly "anti-medicine".

              Conservatives being nut-bars on issues is not justified by saying science is untrustworthy. You don't get to make up your own evidence-free views about the treatment of disease, and about sex, gender, and justify it by attacking science, and pretending your religion somehow justifies the views you've made up for yourself.
              The problem is the science being untrustworthy, it's the motte-and-baily of methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism. Your bias is quite obvious.
              Last edited by Diogenes; 11-28-2023, 04:36 PM.
              P1) If , then I win.

              P2)

              C) I win.

              Comment


              • #8
                The only magic I believe in:

                P1) If , then I win.

                P2)

                C) I win.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                  Ah yes, Mendel, Newtion, and Lemaître famously know for being "anti-science".
                  Some Christians in history have been good with regard to science, some have been bad. That's why I compared the OP to "the worst of Christianity" in its anti-science orientation. Try reading what I wrote more carefully.

                  Trans nonsense is quite anti-biology.
                  Yawn. Ignoramuses asserting their conservative gut beliefs in the face of science just isn't interesting. If you want to be an ignorant moron, fine, but don't pretend your views are scientific truth.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Take the gender identity nonsense.
                    It's a perfect example of US conservatives who failed high school announcing they know basic biology and that there are only 2 genders and that the scientists are wrong.

                    For some reason drop-out US religious conservatives seem to have recently come to believe that they know more about disease and its treatment than scientists, know more about biology in general than scientists, know more about human psychology than psychologists, know more about legal matters than constitutional lawyers, know more about history than historians, etc. The level of stupidity coupled with completely and utterly unreasoning surety in their own views has been quite something to behold. And it all seems to be connected up into OP-style reasoning of "we shouldn't believe the real experts, we know the truth ourselves better than the experts". It's quite phenomenal how many different topics lately that US religious conservatives have been operating this level of completely delusional thinking on.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Some Christians in history have been good with regard to science, some have been bad. That's why I compared the OP to "the worst of Christianity" in its anti-science orientation. Try reading what I wrote more carefully.
                      There are those who are quite worse than the OP.

                      Yawn. Ignoramuses asserting their conservative gut beliefs in the face of science just isn't interesting. If you want to be an ignorant moron, fine, but don't pretend your views are scientific truth.
                      I'm not a conservative. Calling me an "ignorant moron" doesn't make me one. Strange how progressives have no issue supporting the medical-industrial complex.
                      Last edited by Diogenes; 11-28-2023, 04:57 PM.
                      P1) If , then I win.

                      P2)

                      C) I win.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                        I'm not a conservative.
                        You keep saying that. How do you identify?

                        I presume it's something different to "Eastern european troll farm operative" that is my mental label for you?

                        Calling me an "ignorant moron" doesn't make me one.
                        Correct, the cause and effect runs the other way.

                        Strange how progressives have no issue supporting the medical-industrial complex.
                        As a progressive I support entirely abolishing Big Pharma and having a patent-free government-funded medical research system.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          You keep saying that. How do you identify?

                          I presume it's something different to "Eastern european troll farm operative" that is my mental label for you?
                          At least you're honest about your consideration of as an "Eastern European troll farm operative" with no evidence. Ideologically, I would consider myself center-left.


                          Correct, the cause and effect runs the other way.
                          Disagreement doesn't entail I am an "ignorant moron".


                          As a progressive I support entirely abolishing Big Pharma and having a patent-free government-funded medical research system.
                          You mean the same one that funded the lab that most likely leaked Covid?

                          Canada has already show that government funded doesn't make things better as they too have shown that killing people via MAiD is economically better than letting people live.
                          P1) If , then I win.

                          P2)

                          C) I win.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            Ideologically, I would consider myself center-left.
                            How do you square that claim with you dedicating so much time to attacking leftism?

                            You spend a lot of time on this forum making inflammatory and false claims about leftists. e.g. in this thread alone:
                            Strange how progressives have no issue supporting the medical-industrial complex.


                            Then when corrected in that really basic falsehood you respond with generic attacks on leftism. e.g. in this thread alone:
                            Canada has already show that government funded doesn't make things better


                            You spend a lot of time in this forum making inflammatory and false claims against the left.

                            So you seem to be a troll sowing discord for the sake of it, and given your topics of interest you seem most likely to be Eastern European, hence my assumptive labelling of you as an East European troll farm operative.
                            Last edited by Starlight; 11-28-2023, 05:48 PM.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              How do you square that claim with you dedicating so much time to attacking leftism?

                              Notice how I said "center left". My ideology does not constrain practical political choices. I can see the Left steadily moving further to the left.

                              You spend a lot of time on this forum making inflammatory and false claims about leftists. e.g. in this thread alone:
                              Strange how progressives have no issue supporting the medical-industrial complex.
                              I've cited elsewhere Dr Shane Taylor of Vanderbilt talking on how top surgery alone could bring in $40k and that would only cover the primary surgeon. Other examples would be the Covidian corporatists who were gladly "sponsored by Pfizer".

                              Then when corrected in that really basic falsehood you respond with generic attacks on leftism. e.g. in this thread alone:
                              Canada has already show that government funded doesn't make things better
                              You've yet to correct me.

                              You spend a lot of time in this forum making inflammatory and false claims against the left.
                              You've yet to demonstrate these false claims.


                              So you seem to be a troll sowing discord for the sake of it, and given your topics of interest you seem most likely to be Eastern European, hence my assumptive labelling of you as an East European troll farm operative.

                              Unsubstantiated ad hom. Unless you have something substantive, fin.
                              P1) If , then I win.

                              P2)

                              C) I win.

                              Comment

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