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Book Plunge: Why Christians Are Wrong About Jesus

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JimL View Post

    I forget, was that Jesus or YHWY?
    Yes. See Jeremiah 1. The figure speaking to Jeremiah is sometimes "the word of YHWH" and sometimes "YHWH".

    And you thought Jesus was only in the NT.
    Last edited by One Bad Pig; 09-28-2023, 10:03 AM.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Yes. See Jeremiah 1. The figure speaking to Jeremiah is sometimes "the word of YHWH" and sometimes "YHWH".

      And you thought Jesus was only in the NT.
      Bahaha! All that says is that Jeremiah believed that his conversations with himself were actually conversations with God, or that the word that came to him was Jesus. The "word" with respect to this passage obviously identifies with the thoughts conveyed not with a messenger.


      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Yes. See Jeremiah 1. The figure speaking to Jeremiah is sometimes "the word of YHWH" and sometimes "YHWH".

        And you thought Jesus was only in the NT.
        "one should enquire of the word of God" 2Samuel 16:23. Yes.
        "Hear now, ye women, the word of God, and let your ears receive the words of his mouth" Jeremiah 9:19. No.
        “As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the LORD is tested; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him." 2Samuel 22:31. Line-ball.





        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

          And you thought
          In the case of JimL, I say ECREE

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

            In the case of JimL, I say ECREE
            can'tdisagree.gif
            He is, as he once so eloquently stated, not the brightest bulb in the socket.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by JimL View Post

              Bahaha! All that says is that Jeremiah believed that his conversations with himself were actually conversations with God, or that the word that came to him was Jesus. The "word" with respect to this passage obviously identifies with the thoughts conveyed not with a messenger.
              Consistency in interpretation is clearly not your strong suit.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Consistency in interpretation is clearly not your strong suit.
                Well I'm still confused. Is Jesus and YHWH one and the same being or in heaven does Jesus actually sit at the right hand of God? Where was that, in Revelations? Do they actually have thrones?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post

                  Well I'm still confused.
                  Tell us something that everyone doesn't already know.

                  I keep telling you to take a sabbatical. A tolerance break if nothing else. Let your head clear a bit and maybe your thinking will be a bit clearer.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Tell us something that everyone doesn't already know.

                    I keep telling you to take a sabbatical. A tolerance break if nothing else. Let your head clear a bit and maybe your thinking will be a bit clearer.
                    I'll assume then that you can't answer that question for me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post

                      I'll assume then that you can't answer that question for me.
                      It would be like talking to a brick wall -- or maybe a stone[d] wall.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        It would be like talking to a brick wall -- or maybe a stone[d] wall.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post

                          Well I'm still confused. Is Jesus and YHWH one and the same being or in heaven does Jesus actually sit at the right hand of God? Where was that, in Revelations? Do they actually have thrones?
                          Weren't you raised Catholic? YHWH is one God in three persons; one of those persons is the Son, Jesus. Revelation (not Revelations) is one book of the Bible where the thrones are mentioned; they're also mentioned in Matthew, Luke, Acts and Hebrews. Jesus is depicted as being seated at the right hand of God (the Father); the right hand is the position closest in power to the throne.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post

                            You missed your opportunity to triple dog dare me.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Did Paul invent Christianity?

                              --------------

                              How did Paul influence Christianity? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

                              That there was a wide divide between what Paul taught and what Christianity taught kind of died out with the work of E.P. Sanders and Paul and Palestinian Judaism. Nevertheless, never underestimate the ability of internet atheists who don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus to fully embrace resurrecting bad ideas about Jesus. Such is the case with John Campbell.

                              For instance, he says Paul's theology included ideas of original sin and man needing to turn to Jesus through faith in His resurrection for salvation. He says there is no good evidence outside of Paul's letters that anyone believed such things before Paul wrote. He adds that many critical New Testament scholars believe Paul invented them.

                              First, we wait to hear what these writings were that would have existed before Paul wrote his letters. There are some scholars who can date the Gospels before that, but I have no reason to think Campbell would accept that.

                              Second, he says that some apologists point to 1 Cor. 15:3 as predating Paul, which is the passage of Christ died, buried, and rose again according to the Scriptures. He says there is no good reason to believe it did not originate from Paul. No good reason at all, except, you know, the language of passed on and received which refers to oral tradition, the cadence being that of a creed, and the usage of non-Pauline words in there.

                              Third, he does not tell us which critical scholars it is that think that Paul invented these ideas. I think we know why.

                              Besides that, if Paul invented these ideas and changed Christianity, why is that not reflected in the Gospels which is dated later? The Gospels do not address issues that are being talked about in Paul's letters many times. In many surprising cases, they don't really have a lot of theology. Consider the resurrection accounts. Throughout Mattew, you find Him pointing to prophetic fulfillment over and over. Get to the resurrection and there's nothing, not even a single verse of Scripture cited. The resurrection is not explained in terms of atonement or anything like that.

                              With Paul's conversion, Campbell makes a big deal about Paul saying the gospel was revealed in Him instead of to Him.

                              To begin with, while it is fewer, there are some translations that do say "to me" instead of "in me." Second, even if it is that, what of it? This simply means there was a subjective component which is true. I am objectively in front of my laptop writing this, but I am subjectively experiencing it.

                              He also says we only have Paul's word on His revelation which is convenient if you're wanting to fabricate a revelation. No reason given why Paul would want to do that, at least at this point. It's not like from a worldly perspective he was gaining a lot. From a theological perspective, if he was wrong, he was cutting himself off from YHWH by identifying with a blasphemer.

                              So just starting off, this isn't looking too convincing on Campbell's part.

                              We'll continue another time.

                              In Christ,
                              Nick Peters
                              (And I affirm the virgin birth)
                              How did Paul influence Christianity? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. That there was a wide divide between what Paul taught and what Christianity taught kind of died out with the work of E.P. Sanders and Paul and Palestinian Judaism. Nevertheless, never underestimate the ability of internet atheists who don’t believe in the … Continue reading Book Plunge: Why Christians Are Wrong About Jesus: The Influence of Paul

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Was Paul a phony?

                                -------------------

                                Was Paul a phony? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

                                Just recently, I wrote a post on Paul based on information from a Muslim meme. It's not really a shock when I see the same thing coming up from atheists. Once again, it's like people don't understand concepts that they would freely accept in any other place, but when it's in the Bible, you make it as bad as you can.

                                Ever heard those commercials for Babbel where people talk about going to another country and learning the language before they go? You also have to learn the customs. For instance, if I go into someone's house here, I usually don't change my attire at all. When you walk into a Japanese home, you could be expected to take your shoes off.

                                Now imagine if Paul was somehow transported to Japan. Being a Jew, there is no reason he would remove his shoes really except for a good foot-washing, and in our day and age, that is not necessary. Today, if he went to Japan, if he wanted to share the gospel, he would remove his shoes when he entered a house. Why? Because there's nothing immoral about it and it's a simple way to respect the culture of the person.

                                According to someone like Campbell, that is deceitful. After all, look at 1 Cor. 9:20-23? Paul says that when he's with Gentiles, he lives like a Gentile. When he's with a Jew, he lives like a Jew. That's deceitful. Paul fakes like he honors the law when he's with a Jew.

                                No. Paul is just respectful of the people he's with. You don't invite a Jew to a seafood restaurant with you and order lobster. If you're going to talk to a person from India, it's best to avoid hamburgers. If I had Mormons coming over to visit me, as much as I love tea, I would abstain from it then.

                                I have friends who are a husband and wife and both are on the spectrum. When we call each other sometimes to talk about problems, what do we do? We jump straight to why we're calling. No small talk. Why? We all hate it. That's a respect thing as well. While normal greetings might be respectful to many other people, I will personally take it as more respectful if you DON'T do that with me.

                                Also, if Paul was doing this to deceive people, why on Earth would he publicly say it so that word could get to others like that? What Paul is doing is simply learning how to work with the customs of the people that he is reaching. This is not being deceitful. This is simply being respectful of the culture of another. Of course, if there was something immoral, Paul would not do it. William Carey was fine with changing his life for many Indian customs when he went there as a missionary, but he did everything he could, and succeeded also, to stop widow-burning as that was an immoral practice.

                                Atheists and others regularly tout this out as some sort of example of what a wicked character Paul was. It is nothing of the sort and it's something understandable with a few moments of thought. A little tip for them. Generally, if there's a charitable way to read someone, you try to read them that way first.

                                In Christ,
                                Nick Peters
                                (And I affirm the virgin birth)
                                Was Paul a phony? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. Just recently, I wrote a post on Paul based on information from a Muslim meme. It’s not really a shock when I see the same thing coming up from atheists. Once again, it’s like people don’t understand concepts that they would freely … Continue reading Book Plunge: Why Christians Are Wrong About Jesus: Paul The Deceiver?

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