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The Bible and Feeling Led

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  • The Bible and Feeling Led

    What saith Scripture?

    -------------

    Where do we go to find this in the Scripture? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    If you’re the average evangelical in America, you hear this kind of talk in the church a lot. If you feel led to be on this committee or to do this job in the church, then please apply. When the offering comes by, give as you feel led. If you feel led, please join us on this mission trip. We could go on.

    So if we are good evangelicals, we want to see what the Bible says about a topic. So, let’s go to all the passages where this shows up.

    ………..

    Well, that’s odd.

    Surely they’re here somewhere…..

    Oh, wait. They’re not.

    Why do I speak against this? I do because I think there can be a serious danger here. We live in a culture where more and more the emotions lead the way and then the rationality follows. Naturally, both sides of us are fallen, but ultimately, the danger is that the subjective determines the objective. What goes on internally is supreme and the outer world must conform.

    Kind of like the whole transgender movement.

    This also leads to several contradictions. If God is leading me to apply for a position, where surely He wants me to have it, so why do I even need an interview? Go ahead and give it. Oh? It has to be verified that God is leading someone? How will that be done? Who are we to deny what someone feels God is telling them to do?

    Also as evangelicals who claim that Scripture is our supreme authority, we get to explicit IGNORE what Scripture has to say on these matters. Let’s look at giving for example. We have 2 Corinthians 8-9 that give us all instructions on how we are to give. Nowhere in there does Paul tell us to base it on feeling led. If anything, he commands us instead to be cheerful when we give. While there is nothing explicitly saying 10%, I am of the opinion that 10% is a good baseline for giving.

    Let’s consider a church office also. In 1 Tim. 3, we have a list of requirements for someone who desires to be an overseer. Note that Paul says nothing about subjective emotion there, but simply asks if someone wants to be one and even says that that person desires a good thing. He then lists the requirements. He does this in other places to such as in Titus 2 when he talks about being an elder and about other teaching roles in the church.

    There is also the problem here that we have too often treated experience from God as if it was normative and then when someone doesn’t have this experience which they think everyone around them is having, then they either think they are a deficient Christian and/or unloved by God, or they think that Christianity is just false. Rarely will they go back and say “What does Scripture say?” Neither of those alternatives is a good one.

    When it comes to daily decision making also, we have some guidelines for that. It’s a book called Proverbs. it teaches us how to make wise decisions and the criteria to use to make those decisions. I don’t think anyone denies that our world could use some more wisdom today.

    If you are an evangelical and you say Scripture is your authority, then let it be here as well. I am not saying God cannot speak to people today, but if you are claiming God is speaking to you in some way, that requires some serious backing. The Old Testament people would be willing to face death for such a claim. Today, we take it way too lightly.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)
    Where do we go to find this in the Scripture? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. If you’re the average evangelical in America, you hear this kind of talk in the church a lot. If you feel led to be on this committee or to do this job in the church, then … Continue reading The Bible and Feeling Led

  • #2
    Kinda weirds me out when people say that. Or claim God told them to tell you something (taking God's name in vain?).
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
      What saith Scripture?

      -------------

      Where do we go to find this in the Scripture? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

      If you’re the average evangelical in America, you hear this kind of talk in the church a lot. If you feel led to be on this committee or to do this job in the church, then please apply. When the offering comes by, give as you feel led. If you feel led, please join us on this mission trip. We could go on.

      So if we are good evangelicals, we want to see what the Bible says about a topic. So, let’s go to all the passages where this shows up.

      ………..

      Well, that’s odd.

      Surely they’re here somewhere…..

      Oh, wait. They’re not.
      You've been around this game to know this isn't accurate. There *are* verses that we use to support the claim that God leads us directly and personally, apart from what some stiffly refer to as the "propositional statements" of Scripture.

      Regarding your specific examples -- What is wrong with applying for one committee or job above another based on "feeling led" more to one than the other? What is wrong with basing the amount of your offering, or the choice among various things other than your own church to which you donate, on "feeling led"?

      Why do I speak against this? I do because I think there can be a serious danger here. We live in a culture where more and more the emotions lead the way and then the rationality follows. Naturally, both sides of us are fallen, but ultimately, the danger is that the subjective determines the objective. What goes on internally is supreme and the outer world must conform.
      "Feeling led" is not about "emotion" per se. One can have a desire or aspiration for something, but "feel led" to not pursue it. One can "feel led" to do something or say something, but not feel emotionally comfortable about it.


      Kind of like the whole transgender movement.

      This also leads to several contradictions. If God is leading me to apply for a position, where surely He wants me to have it, so why do I even need an interview? Go ahead and give it. Oh? It has to be verified that God is leading someone? How will that be done? Who are we to deny what someone feels God is telling them to do?
      One could say much the same about prayer.

      Also as evangelicals who claim that Scripture is our supreme authority, we get to explicit IGNORE what Scripture has to say on these matters. Let’s look at giving for example. We have 2 Corinthians 8-9 that give us all instructions on how we are to give. Nowhere in there does Paul tell us to base it on feeling led. If anything, he commands us instead to be cheerful when we give. While there is nothing explicitly saying 10%, I am of the opinion that 10% is a good baseline for giving.

      Let’s consider a church office also. In 1 Tim. 3, we have a list of requirements for someone who desires to be an overseer. Note that Paul says nothing about subjective emotion there, but simply asks if someone wants to be one and even says that that person desires a good thing. He then lists the requirements. He does this in other places to such as in Titus 2 when he talks about being an elder and about other teaching roles in the church.
      This can get into the weeds in noting there are subtly different qualifications between 1 Tim. 3 and Tit. 1, which some take as varied wording for the same qualifications for elder/overseer, and others take as slightly different qualifications owing to the different corporate maturity levels between the Ephesian and Cretan churches. That would imply the guidelines are good suggestions, not binding rules for all places and times.

      There is also the problem here that we have too often treated experience from God as if it was normative and then when someone doesn’t have this experience which they think everyone around them is having, then they either think they are a deficient Christian and/or unloved by God, or they think that Christianity is just false. Rarely will they go back and say “What does Scripture say?” Neither of those alternatives is a good one.

      When it comes to daily decision making also, we have some guidelines for that. It’s a book called Proverbs. it teaches us how to make wise decisions and the criteria to use to make those decisions. I don’t think anyone denies that our world could use some more wisdom today.
      Definitely. Unfortunately there's a tendency to treat Proverbs as specific promises and guarantees, rather than general practical advice.

      If you are an evangelical and you say Scripture is your authority, then let it be here as well. I am not saying God cannot speak to people today, but if you are claiming God is speaking to you in some way, that requires some serious backing. The Old Testament people would be willing to face death for such a claim. Today, we take it way too lightly.
      I believe there is a difference between "I kind of feel led to say..." and "GOD TOLD ME TO TELL YOU..."
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

        You've been around this game to know this isn't accurate. There *are* verses that we use to support the claim that God leads us directly and personally, apart from what some stiffly refer to as the "propositional statements" of Scripture.
        If you are going to say someone knows something, you should make sure that they know it. I know there are verses, but I think they are badly misinterpreted.

        Regarding your specific examples -- What is wrong with applying for one committee or job above another based on "feeling led" more to one than the other? What is wrong with basing the amount of your offering, or the choice among various things other than your own church to which you donate, on "feeling led"?
        The idea of led implies someone else is doing the leading, meaning you think God has specifically chosen you for this task. That's quite a claim to make. In both cases though, we have wisdom. Paul speaks about those who desire to be an overseer, nothing about those who feel led to be one. He also tells us to give generously and Proverbs tells us how to be wise with money.



        "Feeling led" is not about "emotion" per se. One can have a desire or aspiration for something, but "feel led" to not pursue it. One can "feel led" to do something or say something, but not feel emotionally comfortable about it.
        No one is saying emotion is useless. Passion for something is a good thing, but the danger is saying that God is specifically asking you to do something. There are plenty of things I can say I have a desire for and do not feel emotionally comfortable about.




        One could say much the same about prayer.
        Nope. PRayer is going to God and in the petitionary sense, saying what you desire and then leaving it in His hands. It is learning dependence. In the case of feeling led, it is saying God has already given the answer. WHy does someone else need to verify that?



        This can get into the weeds in noting there are subtly different qualifications between 1 Tim. 3 and Tit. 1, which some take as varied wording for the same qualifications for elder/overseer, and others take as slightly different qualifications owing to the different corporate maturity levels between the Ephesian and Cretan churches. That would imply the guidelines are good suggestions, not binding rules for all places and times.
        And yet nothing in there about feeling led.



        Definitely. Unfortunately there's a tendency to treat Proverbs as specific promises and guarantees, rather than general practical advice.
        Which just shows our lack of biblical education in this.



        I believe there is a difference between "I kind of feel led to say..." and "GOD TOLD ME TO TELL YOU..."
        There is. The first one doesn't come right out and say it, but it implies it. "I think God wants me to tell you that." That's still an audacious claim. One should be cautious before daring to speak for God.

        Comment


        • #5
          God does sometimes speak to people. I'm not sure we need scripture to validate that. A pastor of mine once felt prompted to stop at a house he was passing by. The couple inside were seriously contemplating suicide, and his visit stopped them from going through with it. On a "lesser" note, God's been showing me sins I need to confess for a couple decades now (well before I became Orthodox).
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            God does sometimes speak to people. I'm not sure we need scripture to validate that. A pastor of mine once felt prompted to stop at a house he was passing by. The couple inside were seriously contemplating suicide, and his visit stopped them from going through with it. On a "lesser" note, God's been showing me sins I need to confess for a couple decades now (well before I became Orthodox).
            Similar story, my student worker and I were praying over a list of college students, when we both felt compelled to stop and doubled own on prayer for one particular woman.
            After praying, we both said, almost simultaneously, "let's go see here".

            We got to her house, she was sitting on the front steps smoking a cigarette. David sat on the step on one side, and I on the other.
            She said, "I'm glad you got here in time".

            Long story short, she had decided to finish that cigarette, then go into her parents bedroom, get her Dad's gun that she had already laid on the bed, and end her life.
            Her dad had left, her mom was in deep depression, and the young lady saw no reason to keep on living.

            Apparently, she just needed somebody to talk to, because her mom came home, and - long story short - they got a bunch of things out in the open, wept bitter tears, snot and everything, hugged it out and promised to do better.

            Today she's a college minister in West Texas serving the Lord.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              What saith Scripture?

              -------------

              Where do we go to find this in the Scripture? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

              If you’re the average evangelical in America, you hear this kind of talk in the church a lot. If you feel led to be on this committee or to do this job in the church, then please apply. When the offering comes by, give as you feel led. If you feel led, please join us on this mission trip. We could go on.

              So if we are good evangelicals, we want to see what the Bible says about a topic. So, let’s go to all the passages where this shows up.

              ………..

              Well, that’s odd.

              Surely they’re here somewhere…..

              Oh, wait. They’re not.

              Why do I speak against this? I do because I think there can be a serious danger here. We live in a culture where more and more the emotions lead the way and then the rationality follows. Naturally, both sides of us are fallen, but ultimately, the danger is that the subjective determines the objective. What goes on internally is supreme and the outer world must conform.

              Kind of like the whole transgender movement.

              This also leads to several contradictions. If God is leading me to apply for a position, where surely He wants me to have it, so why do I even need an interview? Go ahead and give it. Oh? It has to be verified that God is leading someone? How will that be done? Who are we to deny what someone feels God is telling them to do?

              Also as evangelicals who claim that Scripture is our supreme authority, we get to explicit IGNORE what Scripture has to say on these matters. Let’s look at giving for example. We have 2 Corinthians 8-9 that give us all instructions on how we are to give. Nowhere in there does Paul tell us to base it on feeling led. If anything, he commands us instead to be cheerful when we give. While there is nothing explicitly saying 10%, I am of the opinion that 10% is a good baseline for giving.

              Let’s consider a church office also. In 1 Tim. 3, we have a list of requirements for someone who desires to be an overseer. Note that Paul says nothing about subjective emotion there, but simply asks if someone wants to be one and even says that that person desires a good thing. He then lists the requirements. He does this in other places to such as in Titus 2 when he talks about being an elder and about other teaching roles in the church.

              There is also the problem here that we have too often treated experience from God as if it was normative and then when someone doesn’t have this experience which they think everyone around them is having, then they either think they are a deficient Christian and/or unloved by God, or they think that Christianity is just false. Rarely will they go back and say “What does Scripture say?” Neither of those alternatives is a good one.

              When it comes to daily decision making also, we have some guidelines for that. It’s a book called Proverbs. it teaches us how to make wise decisions and the criteria to use to make those decisions. I don’t think anyone denies that our world could use some more wisdom today.

              If you are an evangelical and you say Scripture is your authority, then let it be here as well. I am not saying God cannot speak to people today, but if you are claiming God is speaking to you in some way, that requires some serious backing. The Old Testament people would be willing to face death for such a claim. Today, we take it way too lightly.

              In Christ,
              Nick Peters
              (And I affirm the virgin birth)
              I think this may be a case where we overlook the power and leadership of the Holy Spirit.
              Sure, the Bible is the final authority, but Jesus specifically prayed the Father to send us His Spirit.

              Galatians 5:16 - walk by the Spirit
              Romans 8:14 - for as many as are led by the Spirit
              Luke 4:1 - Jesus was led by the Spirit
              John 14:26 - The Advocate, The Holy Spirit will teach you and bring to remembrance

              Now, I fully agree that some people use this "God told me to...." to justify doing what they want to do, or excusing what they did not do...

              But, if God just intended for us to strictly follow the Bible in our daily living, why did He ask the Father to send us the Holy Spirit?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                OK, sorry - one last post for now....

                It's CHRISTMAS, and in the CHRISTMAS story....

                Luke 2:27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus...
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  I think this may be a case where we overlook the power and leadership of the Holy Spirit.
                  Sure, the Bible is the final authority, but Jesus specifically prayed the Father to send us His Spirit.
                  Yes, but for what purpose? Day to day decision making? Too many people today make major decisions based on a passion alone and nothing else. Marriage, college, jobs, etc.

                  Galatians 5:16 - walk by the Spirit
                  Romans 8:14 - for as many as are led by the Spirit
                  Both of these passages have the same focus. Righteous living as opposed to sinful living. It's not about other decisions.

                  Luke 4:1 - Jesus was led by the Spirit
                  To be tempted by the devil right after the voice of God audibly spoke confirming Him. Not only that, but we don't know how the Spirit led. Saying Jesus was led doesn't equate to "Therefore, what I think of as led by the Spirit is what the author has in mind." The same applies to Simeon in Luke 2 who also had revelation from God personally.

                  John 14:26 - The Advocate, The Holy Spirit will teach you and bring to remembrance
                  Said to the apostles. We weren't there when Jesus was ministering so how can we be brought into remembrance of that exaclty? We can remember what we've read only.

                  Now, I fully agree that some people use this "God told me to...." to justify doing what they want to do, or excusing what they did not do...

                  But, if God just intended for us to strictly follow the Bible in our daily living, why did He ask the Father to send us the Holy Spirit?
                  Because following the Scripture alone won't have us be holy. We need His grace in us to be holy.

                  And as for what OBP said, I fully accept there are times that such events happen where God somehow gets us where He wants us to be for something, but these times are generally the exception, not the rule.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    Because following the Scripture alone won't have us be holy. We need His grace in us to be holy.
                    Just out of curiosity, how would you respond if I said....

                    Because following the Scripture alone won't have us be holy. We need His Holy Spirit in us to be holy.

                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      Just out of curiosity, how would you respond if I said....

                      Because following the Scripture alone won't have us be holy. We need His Holy Spirit in us to be holy.
                      I would agree.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                        I would agree.
                        Of course, but part of His "job" is not to guide and direct us?

                        (perfectly OK if you don't see it that way, but I'm curious)
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          Of course, but part of His "job" is not to guide and direct us?

                          (perfectly OK if you don't see it that way, but I'm curious)
                          Into holy living and repentance.

                          Not for day to day decisions or matters of that sort.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                            Into holy living and repentance.

                            Not for day to day decisions or matters of that sort.
                            OK, we're gonna disagree - I pray both for Wisdom, and for guidance in important matters.

                            (I don't pray about what color socks to wear, because I only have black )
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              OK, we're gonna disagree - I pray both for Wisdom, and for guidance in important matters.

                              (I don't pray about what color socks to wear, because I only have black )
                              I have no problem with praying for wisdom like that. We all should.

                              Comment

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