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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    I gave enough supporting information to show that my claim is not without merit. I figure it's past time to at least try to resume the thread.
    The fact remains that you have not provided an iota of attested contemporary historical evidence to support this claim.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.


    And that is the end of the matter.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • At least according to this article: What led to the emergence of monotheism? Christians in early times accepted the existence of other less than divine powers

      Our modern understanding of monotheism is more recent than the religions it describes.

      Over half the world practices Christianity, Islam or Judaism, according to Pew Research Center. These religions are all monotheistic, involving the worship of one God. But according to scholars, our modern understanding of monotheism is a recent phenomenon — more recent even than the religions it describes.

      So, how did monotheism emerge?

      The answer is complicated. Monotheism didn't emerge with Judaism, nor Christianity, nor Islam, according to scholars. It's a modern concept. And depending on how you define it, it either emerged thousands of years before these major religions, or hundreds of years later.

      At a surface level, many ancient religions look polytheistic. Whether you're looking at Mesopotamia or ancient Egypt, Greece or Rome, the Kingdom of Aksum in northern Africa or ancient Israel: all of these civilizations once worshipped many gods. The reality is a little more complicated, said Andrew Durdin, a religious historian at Florida State University.

      "When you look across human history, the distinction between polytheism and monotheism kind of falls apart," Durdin told Live Science.

      Across cultures, pantheons, or groups of deities specific to a particular religion, were often written about as expressions of the same divine entity, similar to how Christians worship the Holy Trinity — the father, the son and the holy spirit — as different manifestations of God. For example, in the second millennium B.C., the ancient Mesopotamian epic poem, "Enuma Elish,"calls the chief god Marduk by 50 names: the names of those gods subordinate to him. The implication is that these lower gods were really manifestations of one god: Marduk, wrote Jan Assman in the book "Religions of the Ancient World: A Guide(opens in new tab)" (Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2004).

      [...]

      Similarly, early Christians didn't explicitly declare other gods nonexistent; they began referring to them as demons, Chalmers said. Proclamations that there was only one God show up in portions of the Hebrew Bible written around the fifth century B.C. — however, sections written earlier in Jewish history made no such claims, Chalmers said. And it wasn’t until the third and fourth centuries A.D., that the concept of one God finally began appearing in Christian liturgy. However, scholars disagree on the exact timeline, he added. Islam was slightly a different story. The Quran, which was penned within decades of Islam's emergence in the seventh century, explicitly stated that there was only one God from the get-go, said Chad Haines, a historian of religion at Arizona State University. That doesn’t mean that monotheism emerged with Islam, however — this was a development that built on earlier religious traditions and continued to evolve over time.


      The article notes that the term monotheism wasn't coined until the 17th century A.D. (by Henry More FWIU), which according to H_A, means it did not exist until that time.


      Another interesting article, from World History Encyclopedia on Monotheism in the Ancient World

      Ancient Judaism continues to receive the most attention as creating the origins of monotheism in the Western tradition. More recently some scholars are applying the term 'monolatry,' a system that recognizes the existence of other gods, but chooses to worship only one. Like their neighbors, ancient Jews conceived of a hierarchy of powers in heaven: “sons of god” (Genesis 6), angels, archangels (the messengers from God who communicate God's will to humans), cherubim and seraphim. Jews also recognized the existence of demons with many examples in the ministry of Jesus in the gospels in his role as an exorcist.

      [...]

      Our earliest evidence for Christian communities, the letters of Paul (c. 50-60 CE), demonstrate the same Jewish recognition in the powers of the universe. Many manifestations of the divine were accepted in the same gradients of power, but only the god of Israel was to be worshipped: "Even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many lords—yet for us there is one god, the Father" (1 Corinthians 8:5). Paul often railed against the others' gods who impeded his mission (2 Corinthians 4:4). Their existence was real.



      Early Christians appears to have recognized the existence of what some cultures and civilizations called "gods" but regarded them as being demons.
      Last edited by rogue06; 08-14-2022, 09:02 AM.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        At least according to this article: What led to the emergence of monotheism? Christians in early times accepted the existence of other less than divine powers

        Our modern understanding of monotheism is more recent than the religions it describes.

        Over half the world practices Christianity, Islam or Judaism, according to Pew Research Center. These religions are all monotheistic, involving the worship of one God. But according to scholars, our modern understanding of monotheism is a recent phenomenon — more recent even than the religions it describes.

        So, how did monotheism emerge?

        The answer is complicated. Monotheism didn't emerge with Judaism, nor Christianity, nor Islam, according to scholars. It's a modern concept. And depending on how you define it, it either emerged thousands of years before these major religions, or hundreds of years later.

        At a surface level, many ancient religions look polytheistic. Whether you're looking at Mesopotamia or ancient Egypt, Greece or Rome, the Kingdom of Aksum in northern Africa or ancient Israel: all of these civilizations once worshipped many gods. The reality is a little more complicated, said Andrew Durdin, a religious historian at Florida State University.

        "When you look across human history, the distinction between polytheism and monotheism kind of falls apart," Durdin told Live Science.

        Across cultures, pantheons, or groups of deities specific to a particular religion, were often written about as expressions of the same divine entity, similar to how Christians worship the Holy Trinity — the father, the son and the holy spirit — as different manifestations of God. For example, in the second millennium B.C., the ancient Mesopotamian epic poem, "Enuma Elish,"calls the chief god Marduk by 50 names: the names of those gods subordinate to him. The implication is that these lower gods were really manifestations of one god: Marduk, wrote Jan Assman in the book "Religions of the Ancient World: A Guide(opens in new tab)" (Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2004).

        [...]

        Similarly, early Christians didn't explicitly declare other gods nonexistent; they began referring to them as demons, Chalmers said. Proclamations that there was only one God show up in portions of the Hebrew Bible written around the fifth century B.C. — however, sections written earlier in Jewish history made no such claims, Chalmers said. And it wasn’t until the third and fourth centuries A.D., that the concept of one God finally began appearing in Christian liturgy. However, scholars disagree on the exact timeline, he added. Islam was slightly a different story. The Quran, which was penned within decades of Islam's emergence in the seventh century, explicitly stated that there was only one God from the get-go, said Chad Haines, a historian of religion at Arizona State University. That doesn’t mean that monotheism emerged with Islam, however — this was a development that built on earlier religious traditions and continued to evolve over time.


        The article notes that the term monotheism wasn't coined until the 17th century A.D. (by Henry More FWIU), which according to H_A, means it did not exist until that time.


        Another interesting article, from World History Encyclopedia on Monotheism in the Ancient World

        Ancient Judaism continues to receive the most attention as creating the origins of monotheism in the Western tradition. More recently some scholars are applying the term 'monolatry,' a system that recognizes the existence of other gods, but chooses to worship only one. Like their neighbors, ancient Jews conceived of a hierarchy of powers in heaven: “sons of god” (Genesis 6), angels, archangels (the messengers from God who communicate God's will to humans), cherubim and seraphim. Jews also recognized the existence of demons with many examples in the ministry of Jesus in the gospels in his role as an exorcist.

        [...]

        Our earliest evidence for Christian communities, the letters of Paul (c. 50-60 CE), demonstrate the same Jewish recognition in the powers of the universe. Many manifestations of the divine were accepted in the same gradients of power, but only the god of Israel was to be worshipped: "Even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many lords—yet for us there is one god, the Father" (1 Corinthians 8:5). Paul often railed against the others' gods who impeded his mission (2 Corinthians 4:4). Their existence was real.



        Early Christians appears to have recognized the existence of what some cultures and civilizations called "gods" but regarded them as being demons.
        Thanks Rogue.

        A few other points arise -
        Monotheist as coined by More was originally the opposite of Atheist, a change of definition soon following. (atonement also got altered pretty much as radically and quickly)
        Josephus uses daemon in a number of ways - depending on context, it can be a god, angel, demon, lesser god/demiurge, even an elevated human (and IIRC - one or two others to boot) ... not a whole lot of difference from the Japanese kami,
        Paul's "god of this world" (the cited 2Cor 4:4) is most certainly not the god of heaven.
        Interesting article.

        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Thanks Rogue.

          A few other points arise -
          Monotheist as coined by More was originally the opposite of Atheist, a change of definition soon following. (atonement also got altered pretty much as radically and quickly)
          Josephus uses daemon in a number of ways - depending on context, it can be a god, angel, demon, lesser god/demiurge, even an elevated human (and IIRC - one or two others to boot) ... not a whole lot of difference from the Japanese kami,
          Paul's "god of this world" (the cited 2Cor 4:4) is most certainly not the god of heaven.

          Interesting article.
          Finally watched the last few episodes of Lovecraft Country[1] last night where the protagonist accuses the character played by Jamie Chung of being a succubus and she calmly explains that in Korea she is called a kitsune or 9-tailed fox (actually I thought that's the name in Japanese not Korean ).






          1. superb acting but rivals Birth of a Nation for it's blatant racism. Every single white person -- without any exception -- is portrayed as the living embodiment of evil.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Finally watched the last few episodes of Lovecraft Country[1] last night where the protagonist accuses the character played by Jamie Chung of being a succubus and she calmly explains that in Korea she is called a kitsune or 9-tailed fox (actually I thought that's the name in Japanese not Korean ).


            1. superb acting but rivals Birth of a Nation for it's blatant racism. Every single white person -- without any exception -- is portrayed as the living embodiment of evil.
            Seems like it would be worth watching then.

            Kitsune is definitely the Japanese word for fox, but there might be some crossover. The 9 tailed fox (Shippo, tail) is common to Japanese, Chinese and Korean mythology, but google translate only shows kitsune as the Japanese word ... for fox. That isn't particularly conclusive, because words cross over in some dialects of each country without necessarily making it to the translation dictionaries (or even ordinary national dictionaries).

            Late update: the 9 tailed fox is also part of Vietnamese folklore. The Korean word is normally kumiho. Originally in and uniquely to Korean mythology: evil, shape-shifters presenting as attractive girls to lure men away and eat their hearts to maintain immortality.

            I could swear there was a multi tailed fox character named shippo in an anime ... Kenshin?
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-14-2022, 01:08 PM.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Seems like it would be worth watching then.

              Kitsune is definitely the Japanese word for fox, but there might be some crossover. The 9 tailed fox (Shippo, tail) is common to Japanese, Chinese and Korean mythology, but google translate only shows kitsune as the Japanese word ... for fox. That isn't particularly conclusive, because words cross over in some dialects of each country without necessarily making it to the translation dictionaries (or even ordinary national dictionaries).


              I could swear there was a multi tailed fox character named shippo in an anime ... Kenshin?
              Shippo was the young fox demon that was part of Inuyasha's crew. His primary role was to annoy Inuyasha and act as general transport (inflate into giant balloon they sat atop of)

              The cat demon that they also rode had two-tails.

              kumiho appears to be the Korean word (I did a search for 9-tail fox -naruto)

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                The fact remains that you have not provided an iota of attested contemporary historical evidence to support this claim.



                And that is the end of the matter.
                Given the fact that monotheism was not even a concept in the 4th century, it would seem to be rather difficult to find "attested contemporary historical evidence", no?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Don't we Christians still believe in finite powerful spirits(elohim)? We just don't think they are worthy of worship. Only God is worthy of worship. Even if some people would have worshipped those lame finite spirits.
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • Michael Heiser has entered the chat.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      Michael Heiser has entered the chat.
                      Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism?. 31 pages so I won't post it here. Just follow the hyperlink.

                      From a remark before the introduction:

                      Israel’s view of God and his relationship to other divine beings in the Hebrew Bible has long been the subject of scholarly debate. The dominant critical consensus since the late nineteenth century holds that Israel’s faith evolved from polytheism or henotheism to monotheism. Passages in the Hebrew Bible that assume the existence of other gods are compared to other passages that put forth the declaration that “there are no other gods besides” the God of Israel as proof of this view. Other scholars who reject this evolutionary paradigm tend to assume passages evincing divine plurality actually speak of human beings, or that the other gods are merely idols. This view insists that “monotheism” must mean that the existence of other gods is denied. Both views are problematic and fall short of doing justice to the full description of Israel’s view of God and the heavenly host in the Hebrew Bible. This article overviews the difficulties of each view and offers a coherent alternative.


                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism?. 31 pages so I won't post it here. Just follow the hyperlink.

                        From a remark before the introduction:

                        Israel’s view of God and his relationship to other divine beings in the Hebrew Bible has long been the subject of scholarly debate. The dominant critical consensus since the late nineteenth century holds that Israel’s faith evolved from polytheism or henotheism to monotheism. Passages in the Hebrew Bible that assume the existence of other gods are compared to other passages that put forth the declaration that “there are no other gods besides” the God of Israel as proof of this view. Other scholars who reject this evolutionary paradigm tend to assume passages evincing divine plurality actually speak of human beings, or that the other gods are merely idols. This view insists that “monotheism” must mean that the existence of other gods is denied. Both views are problematic and fall short of doing justice to the full description of Israel’s view of God and the heavenly host in the Hebrew Bible. This article overviews the difficulties of each view and offers a coherent alternative.
                        pp 12-13

                        the confessional statements of Deut 4:35, 39 and 32:12, 39 must
                        be viewed against the backdrop of the Most High’s dealings with
                        the Gentile nations and the gods he appointed to govern them. It would be
                        nonsensical to conclude that Deut 4:19–20 and 32:8–9 show Yahweh giving
                        the nations up to the governance of non-existent beings. The writer is not
                        suggesting in turn that Yahweh allotted non-existent beings to the nations
                        so as to explain why the nations outside Israel worship non-existent beings.
                        The implication is that the declarations of Deut 4:35, 39 and 32:12, 39
                        are best understood as reflecting a worldview that accepted the reality of
                        other gods,


                        Yup - reading monotheism into the Hebrew texts is an exercise in anachronism.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • Someone is conspicuous by their absence after getting what she asked for.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • One cannot help but be entertained by the notion that one paper from one theologian settles the entire complex issue once and for all
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              One cannot help but be entertained by the notion that one paper from one theologian settles the entire complex issue once and for all
                              Which "one paper from one theologian" are you referring to?

                              What led to the emergence of monotheism?

                              Monotheism in the Ancient World

                              Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism?

                              Correct me if I wrong, but I'm seeing three sources cited.


                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Which "one paper from one theologian" are you referring to?

                                What led to the emergence of monotheism?

                                Monotheism in the Ancient World

                                Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism?

                                Correct me if I wrong, but I'm seeing three sources cited.
                                I referred to "one paper "and there is only one. The other two references are to popular articles.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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