Abstinence and the Virgin Birth (Which I do affirm)

[tabibito]

Larry Hurtado. Early Christian Monotheism. Blog
... (2) that the standard dictionary definition is belief in the existence of only one God (or, correspondingly, denial of the existence of any other gods). All our evidence of ancient Jewish tradition is either inconclusive about whether the existence of other deities was denied, or else is pretty clear that their existence wasn’t denied. Ancient Jews (and Christians) seem to have been more concerned to refuse the worship of other deities, and not so much their existence.

Larry Hurtado is one of the leading lights in the theological world, so cue the objections that

1/ His comments are not in an accredited peer reviewed paper
2/ His comments are invalid because he is a Christian.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Larry Hurtado. Early Christian Monotheism. Blog
... (2) that the standard dictionary definition is belief in the existence of only one God (or, correspondingly, denial of the existence of any other gods). All our evidence of ancient Jewish tradition is either inconclusive about whether the existence of other deities was denied, or else is pretty clear that their existence wasn’t denied. Ancient Jews (and Christians) seem to have been more concerned to refuse the worship of other deities, and not so much their existence.

Larry Hurtado is one of the leading lights in the theological world, so cue the objections that

1/ His comments are not in an accredited peer reviewed paper
2/ His comments are invalid because he is a Christian.

I read that blog as well. However, those three sentences have no bearing on the following comment, for which you have still failed to provide an iota of attested evidence.

Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.

[tabibito]

I read that blog as well. However, those three sentences have no bearing on the following comment, for which you have still failed to provide an iota of attested evidence.

Hurtado's blog is enough to show that I have reasonable grounds for making the claim. You're the one gainsaying what I said. Provide some evidence that you have grounds for doing so.


Also worth adding: Hurtado has a bit more than just those few things to say about the matter. Either you didn't bother to read the blog or you're misrepresenting it.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Hurtado's blog is enough to show that I have reasonable grounds for making the claim. You're the one gainsaying what I said. Provide some evidence that you have grounds for doing so.


Also worth adding: Hurtado has a bit more than just those few things to say about the matter. Either you didn't bother to read the blog or you're misrepresenting it.

Hurtado is a recognised academic. However, you cannot produce a short blog by one academic on a very complex topic and then pronounce [premised on that short blog] that you have "reasonable grounds for making the claim". Hurtado's view is not the definitive position on this complex issue. Indeed entire collections of works by various academics exist on all these topics. And as is the case, those individuals have their own [and often contradictory] opinions.

However, that all you have managed to produce with regard to your position has been the citing of some verses from Paul, a link to an online blog, and one paper [also available online] does not sit with your earlier contention [pertaining to the alleged plethora of information in your possession] that:

Sifting through would take some hours, perhaps days.

Unless that was a reference to your having to engage in a lot of Googling.

Nor does it go anyway towards demonstrating [i.e. by providing attested historical evidence] that:

Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.

[tabibito]

Hurtado is a recognised academic. However, you cannot produce a short blog by one academic on a very complex topic and then pronounce [premised on that short blog] that you have "reasonable grounds for making the claim". Hurtado's view is not the definitive position on this complex issue. Indeed entire collections of works by various academics exist on all these topics. And as is the case, those individuals have their own [and often contradictory] opinions.

A topic so complex that you see fit to disparage an assessment without bothering to consider whether it might have merit.

To date all I have had only gleanings from translations of scattered source documents as a basis for my conclusion. Providing evidence on that basis (even if I were to take the trouble of sifting through it again) would only see you, yet again, disparage evidence that you demonstrate neither the wit nor the will to evaluate. Hurtado's blog opens the way to finding something better organised than what I have. Assuming that is, that I choose to do so.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

A topic so complex that you see fit to disparage an assessment without bothering to consider whether it might have merit.

To date all I have had only gleanings from translations of scattered source documents as a basis for my conclusion. Providing evidence on that basis (even if I were to take the trouble of sifting through it again) would only see you, yet again, disparage evidence that you demonstrate neither the wit nor the will to evaluate. Hurtado's blog opens the way to finding something better organised than what I have. Assuming that is, that I choose to do so.

I have not disparaged Hurtado's blog. It is simply not enough as the basis for your contentions.

Nor is the onus on me to do anything. You wrote this:

Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.

I have asked you for some attested historical evidence in support of that comment and all you have done is evade my request.

[tabibito]

I have not disparaged Hurtado's blog. It is simply not enough as the basis for your contentions.

Nor is the onus on me to do anything. You wrote this:



I have asked you for some attested historical evidence in support of that comment and all you have done is evade my request.

There is no onus on you to substantiate your claims, but there is on me to substantiate mine?
Bulldust.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

There is no onus on you to substantiate your claims, but there is on me to substantiate mine?
Bulldust.

You made the comment that:

Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.

I did not.

[tabibito]

You made the comment
I did not.

You contradicted my claim without bothering to provide any support for your opposing viewpoint.

There is no more onus on me to substantiate my claim than there is on you to substantiate your counter claim.

It's a safe bet that you couldn't substantiate your claim: if you had been able to do so, you would have delighted in making a big show of how superior you think your knowledge is, and posted that information in detail. (peppered of course with your wonted denigration and self aggrandisement.)

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You contradicted my claim without bothering to provide any support for your opposing viewpoint.

There is no more onus on me to substantiate my claim than there is on you to substantiate your counter claim.

It's a safe bet that you couldn't substantiate your claim: if you had been able to do so, you would have delighted in making a big show of how superior you think your knowledge is, and posted that information in detail. (peppered of course with your wonted denigration and self aggrandisement.)

This is getting tedious. You made the following comment. .

Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.

I asked you to substantiate that remark and you have done nothing but procrastinate and evade.

[rogue06]

You made the comment that:



I did not.

He made a claim. You disputed it.

The onus is on both of you to support your claims.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

He made a claim. You disputed it.

The onus is on both of you to support your claims.

Enter the chorus - stage left.

I did not dispute his comment here:

Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.

I asked him:

What evidence are you citing for that statement?

[rogue06]

Enter the chorus - stage left.

Main act. Lifted through a trap door center stage. Get it right.

[tabibito]

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and then born of the virgin Mary. This is part of the miracle of Jesus. From his birth, to his death to his resurrection.

The conception was spiritual. Not as you picture it below:

That is so. The Biblical record shows that Logos became flesh, a human no different from any other; though not of human origin.

That is a long way removed from the concept of a demi-god.

[tabibito]

He made a claim. You disputed it.

The onus is on both of you to support your claims.

I gave enough supporting information to show that my claim is not without merit. I figure it's past time to at least try to resume the thread.