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Abstinence and the Virgin Birth (Which I do affirm)

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  • #76
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Monolatry would make a pinch of incense rather problematic.
    That's putting it mildly.

    H_A seems to think that only a monotheist would refuse to pay even the slightest form of obeisance to another god.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      That's putting it mildly.

      H_A seems to think that only a monotheist would refuse to pay even the slightest form of obeisance to another god.
      For someone so ostensibly knowledgeable, she is bewilderingly unable to see the distinction between monotheism and monolatry.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        That's putting it mildly.

        H_A seems to think that only a monotheist would refuse to pay even the slightest form of obeisance to another god.
        I am not the one who is confused.

        One Bad Pig is confused. Monolatrists would possibly have had less issues about offering a pinch of incense than would Christians who were [and remain] monotheists.

        For Christians all other gods were false and were believed to be demons and/or devils. There was only one true god.

        You made the ridiculous comment that:

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.


        And when asked to substantiate that remark with some attested evidence declined because:

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Sifting through would take some hours, perhaps days. there was too much to go through!


        Which reads as the proverbial dodge - because there ain't any evidence that "Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders"!
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          For someone so ostensibly knowledgeable, she is bewilderingly unable to see the distinction between monotheism and monolatry.
          I have just pointed out your confusion. Christians never accepted the existence of other gods.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #80

            1 Cor 8:4-6
            4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
            5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) ** BDAG supplies ὥσπερ εἰσὶν θεοὶ πολλοί just as indeed there are many gods **
            6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.




            ** Where the translation understates ωσπερ (as), BDAG slightly overstates (just as indeed).

            It would be kind of difficult to make a case that Paul is saying that idols don't exist - their existence is beyond dispute.
            Paul acknowledges the existence of other gods
            Paul states that there is, nonetheless, to us only one god. Hardly a ringing endorsement of monotheism.

            The Christian concept considered God as unique and supreme among gods (the god of gods), as had the preceding Hebrew concept.
            For the relevant Hebrew concepts, see
            Michael Heiser. Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible (Bulletin for Biblical Research 18.1, 2008) 1–30


            Difficulties arise in sorting early Christian beliefs and demonstrating what they were because of a change of meaning to the term δαιμονιον; which can reasonably be assumed to have occurred no time earlier than Constantine.

            In the Bible, Acts 17:18 alone, δαιμονιων, "of strange deities," is translated more or less in line with its first century meaning (lesser god, demiurge); elsewhere in the New Testament δαιμονιον is translated as "demon." Particularly with the writings of the second and third century apologists (and others), where "demon" appears in the translation, "lesser god" can be safely assumed. (This fact is certain to be dismissed by some as nonsense.)

            Given that the god of the Christians and Hebrews was the creator, it would have been difficult for the first century Athenian to accept the god promoted by Paul to be the supreme god - important gods did not personally engage in "manual" labour (according to Athenian concepts).
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-13-2022, 12:38 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              1 Cor 8:4-6
              4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
              5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) ** BDAG supplies ὥσπερ εἰσὶν θεοὶ πολλοί just as indeed there are many gods **
              6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.




              ** Where the translation understates ωσπερ (as), BDAG slightly overstates (just as indeed).

              It would be kind of difficult to make a case that Paul is saying that idols don't exist - their existence is beyond dispute.
              Paul acknowledges the existence of other gods

              Paul states that there is, nonetheless, to us only one god. Hardly a ringing endorsement of monotheism.

              The Christian concept considered God as unique and supreme among gods (the god of gods), as had the preceding Hebrew concept.
              For the relevant Hebrew concepts, see
              Michael Heiser. Monotheism, Polytheism, Monolatry, or Henotheism? Toward an Assessment of Divine Plurality in the Hebrew Bible (Bulletin for Biblical Research 18.1, 2008) 1–30


              Difficulties arise in sorting early Christian beliefs and demonstrating what they were because of a change of meaning to the term δαιμονιον; which can reasonably be assumed to have occurred no time earlier than Constantine.

              In the Bible, Acts 17:18 alone, δαιμονιων, "of strange deities," is translated more or less in line with its first century meaning (lesser god, demiurge); elsewhere in the New Testament δαιμονιον is translated as "demon." Particularly with the writings of the second and third century apologists (and others), where "demon" appears in the translation, "lesser god" can be safely assumed. (This fact is certain to be dismissed by some as nonsense.)

              Given that the god of the Christians and Hebrews was the creator, it would have been difficult for the first century Athenian to accept the god promoted by Paul to be the supreme god - important gods did not personally engage in "manual" labour (according to Athenian concepts).
              Precisely. They are not gods as far as Paul is concerned. They are Idols to false gods, and he affirms, as you point out, that there is for "us" only one god. which is monotheism, and helps to explain Paul's desire to take his "gospel" to the Gentiles.

              Heiser's paper is interesting, albeit somewhat dogmatic, but it is concerned with the Hebrew bible. I'd also point out that in their history the Israelites had been both polytheistic and henotheistic.

              I likewise find it hard to imagine that some verses from I Corinthians and a paper by Heiser would have necessitated

              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Sifting through would take some hours, perhaps days.


              Nor does your above comment substantiate your earlier contention that:

              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.




              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Precisely. They are not gods as far as Paul is concerned. They are Idols to false gods, and he affirms, as you point out, that there is for "us" only one god. which is monotheism, and helps to explain Paul's desire to take his "gospel" to the Gentiles.
                Paul said that there are many gods. Hardly support for your contention. "
                For US there is but one god" means that (for us) any other gods are beneath notice; it means nothing like "no other gods exist."

                Heiser's paper is interesting, albeit somewhat dogmatic, but it is concerned with the Hebrew bible.
                The Hebrew Bible and beliefs (particularly first century Hebrew beliefs) are not irrelevant to Christian beliefs. There is nothing wrong with being dogmatic, particularly when available information is in conflict with majority consensus.

                I'd also point out that in their history the Israelites had been both polytheistic and henotheistic.
                Really? Who'd have thought that the Bible's own record would be valid?




                Had an honest enquiry been advanced, I might have considered going to the trouble of digging through the information available. As matters stand, it would be more trouble than it is worth.
                Last edited by tabibito; 08-13-2022, 05:00 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Paul said that there are many gods. Hardly support for your contention. "
                  For US there is but one god" means that (for us) any other gods are beneath notice; it means nothing like "no other gods exist."
                  Are you contending that early Christians recognised the validity of these other gods? They did not. These were false gods [dead gods] idols, or even demons sent to tempt the believer from the true path.

                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  The Hebrew Bible and beliefs (particularly first century Hebrew beliefs) are not irrelevant to Christian beliefs. There is nothing wrong with being dogmatic, particularly when available information is in conflict with majority consensus.
                  Heiser has his own personal opinions. However, I note he never cited Smith's works on Israelite polytheism and the development of monotheism.

                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Really? Who'd have thought that the Bible's own record would be valid?
                  The Hebrew bible condemns polytheism. However, the texts demonstrate that early Israelites, like all other cultures were polytheistic. Judaism developed as a a later religion

                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                  Had an honest enquiry been advanced, I might have considered going to the trouble of digging through the information available. As matters stand, it would be more trouble than it is worth.
                  Ah another example of the dodge about "honest" interlocutors!
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    For someone so ostensibly knowledgeable, she is bewilderingly unable to see...
                    Should we start making a list?

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Are you contending that early Christians recognised the validity of these other gods? They did not. These were false gods [dead gods] idols, or even demons sent to tempt the believer from the true path.
                      Again - and a competent commentator should not need reminding of the fact - when the first century writers wrote about demons they were usually writing about lesser gods.

                      Heiser has his own personal opinions. However, I note he never cited Smith's works on Israelite polytheism and the development of monotheism.
                      Would that be John Smith the founder of the Mormon church? No? Mark Smith then, the author who claims (contra your own assertions) that YHVH did not figure in the Canaanite pantheon.
                      Why do you think it necessary for Heiser to cite one particular author among a plethora of authors? One could be forgiven for thinking that (per your SOP) without the ability to formulate a cogent argument in opposition to Heiser's claims, your complaint is no more than an attempt to discredit Heiser without engaging with his argument.

                      The Hebrew bible condemns polytheism.
                      My my. Such an astounding statement of the obvious. "You shall have no other gods before me" is only an acknowledgement of other gods and a command to eschew any form of contact with them. It is a long way from saying that there are no other gods - which monotheism does say.

                      However, the texts demonstrate that early Israelites, like all other cultures were polytheistic. Judaism developed as a a later religion
                      You're ostensibly the wrong gender to be indulging in mansplaining. Yet here it is - your second indulgence in the same post.

                      Ah another example of the dodge about "honest" interlocutors!
                      Call it what you will. You haven't produced a scholarly sourced counter-argument to my claim.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 08-13-2022, 06:49 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Should we start making a list?
                        Just how many terabytes of file space do you intend to allocate to the task?
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Just how many terabytes of file space do you intend to allocate to the task?
                          I'm old school. I still think in terms of pages of paper.

                          I'm figuring we might need to totally deforest the Amazon.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Again - and a competent commentator should not need reminding of the fact - when the first century writers wrote about demons they were usually writing about lesser gods.
                            The fact remains that Christianity never accepted the gods of other religions. These were idols and false gods.

                            Hence the issues over that pinch of incense.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Would that be John Smith the founder of the Mormon church? No? Mark Smith then, the author who claims (contra your own assertions) that YHVH did not figure in the Canaanite pantheon.
                            We should not forget religious syncretism nor the contacts between these various western Semitic cultures. For example the Canaanite city of Ugarit has texts in which the storm god Ba˓al defeats Yamm. We see the poet employing imagery paralleled from earlier Canaanite and Akkadian mythology in Psalm 74 verse 13. Furthermore, the Ugaritic and Moabite languages may be regarded as variant dialects of Hebrew with Akkadian and Assyrian both being closely related to Hebrew in the Semitic linguistic group.

                            As Smith notes:

                            The formative traditions of Israel, now largely lost in the mists of time, camouflage a complex relationship between El and Yahweh. [...] At some point, a number of Israelite traditions identified El with Yahweh or presupposed this equation. The Hebrew Bible rarely distinguishes between El and Yahweh or offers polemics against El. West Semitic El lies behind the god of the patriarchs in Genesis 33:20 and 46:3 (and possibly elsewhere). Later tradition clearly intended that this god be identified as Yahweh.


                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Why do you think it necessary for Heiser to cite one particular author among a plethora of authors?
                            I noticed he does not cite very many other authors, but Smith is generally considered to be one of the present leading figures in that particular academic area.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            One could be forgiven for thinking that (per your SOP) without the ability to formulate a cogent argument in opposition to Heiser's claims, your complaint is no more than an attempt to discredit Heiser without engaging with his argument.
                            I have no wish to discuss Heiser's contentions that would constitute another thread! Nor have I discredited him, I merely noted that his contentions were somewhat dogmatic. You do take offence remarkably easily.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Call it what you will. You haven't produced a scholarly sourced counter-argument to my claim.
                            I do not need to. You are the one that made the remark that:

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.


                            A comment for which you have yet to provide an iota of attested evidence.

                            .

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              The fact remains that Christianity never accepted the gods of other religions. These were idols and false gods.
                              Of course not - that is the hallmark of both monotheism and monolatry.

                              Hence the issues over that pinch of incense.
                              Action fully in line with both monotheism and monolatry.

                              As Smith notes:

                              The formative traditions of Israel, now largely lost in the mists of time, camouflage a complex relationship between El and Yahweh. [...] At some point, a number of Israelite traditions identified El with Yahweh or presupposed this equation. The Hebrew Bible rarely distinguishes between El and Yahweh or offers polemics against El. West Semitic El lies behind the god of the patriarchs in Genesis 33:20 and 46:3 (and possibly elsewhere). Later tradition clearly intended that this god be identified as Yahweh.
                              A position that you denied in debate on these boards.

                              I noticed he does not cite very many other authors, but Smith is generally considered to be one of the present leading figures in that particular academic area.
                              Which does nothing to undermine his argument.

                              I do not need to.
                              Hardly a surprising claim. It is self evident, as others have pointed out, that you believe yourself exempt from the rules and standards that you so imperiously seek to impose on others.

                              Flatly, I have as much right to make unsupported claims as do you, but I exercise that right in far fewer circumstances.


                              Subject to contrary evidence being brought to light, I will continue to hold that during the early Christian centuries, Christianity was monolatrous.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 08-13-2022, 10:27 AM.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Of course not - that is the hallmark of both monotheism and monolatry.
                                Christians never accepted or recognised other gods. The religion was monotheistic from the outset.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                A position that you denied in debate on these boards.
                                What position?

                                That "a number of Israelite traditions identified El with Yahweh"?

                                Or that:

                                "The Hebrew Bible rarely distinguishes between El and Yahweh or offers polemics against El. West Semitic El lies behind the god of the patriarchs. And that "Later tradition clearly intended that this god be identified as Yahweh."

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Which does nothing to undermine his argument.
                                I never wrote that it did. However, I noted that he is somewhat dogmatic.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Hardly a surprising claim.
                                I did not make the following statement. You did. And as yet you have provided no attested evidence in support of it.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Even as late as the fourth century, monotheism was not particularly endorsed by Christian leaders.




                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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