Abstinence and the Virgin Birth (Which I do affirm)

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

We probably could cite multiple experts that would note that the Jews were exempt from compulsory military service, except perhaps for the time that Tiberius forcibly conscripted 4000 Jews for military service on the island of Sardinia. So nobody is suggesting otherwise.

But being exempted from being conscripted does not mean that those who wanted to couldn't enlist. It merely means that you couldn't be forced to.

As noted elsewhere certainly those who considered themselves to be Ioudaio, or who were deemed to be so by others, did join the Roman auxiliary units.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The reddened comments are not uncommon; but our "historian" in residence doesn't seem to be aware of them.

An interesting paper by Zeichmann (PDF) makes it clear enough that centurions had a fairly prominent position in civic duties, quite commonly having a role as demi-police rather than soldiering (go figure) and independently of actual legions. Pages 90-91 most interesting ... there was a position which could be termed "district Centurion," to whom petitions were passed on for action.

Note the word "infer" in that abstract section, and also note that centurions were still part of the Roman army.

[tabibito]

Note the word "infer" in that abstract section, and also note that centurions were still part of the Roman army.

The first occurrence of "infer" in Zeichmann's paper is on page 100, well after the abstract, and in connexion with the Jewish war, itself after the time frame indicated by Luke's writings.

There is nothing in the available evidence that precludes the presence of a centurion in the locations nominated by Luke, and nothing that precludes even a devout Jew from being a soldier in the Roman army. In fact, there is firm evidence for the latter, so the existence of a Roman centurion with strong Yahwist leanings is also not precluded.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The first occurrence of "infer" in Zeichmann's paper is on page 100, well after the abstract, and in connexion with the Jewish war, itself after the time frame indicated by Luke's writings.

There is nothing in the available evidence that precludes the presence of a centurion in the locations nominated by Luke, and nothing that precludes even a devout Jew from being a soldier in the Roman army. In fact, there is firm evidence for the latter, so the existence of a Roman centurion with strong Yahwist leanings is also not precluded.

Your comments have to consider how the word Ioudaioi is to be understood within the context in the mid first century CE.

[tabibito]

Your comments have to consider how the word Ioudaioi is to be understood within the context in the mid first century CE.

Given that there is a paper already cited showing that Jewish Roman soldiers of the first century also held office in Synagogues: no, I don't.

But it is nice to see you finally acknowledging the variations in the way that "Jew" was interpreted during the first century. If I didn't know better, I would consider the possibility that you had actually been paying attention.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Given that there is a paper already cited showing that Jewish Roman soldiers of the first century also held office in Synagogues: no, I don't.

But it is nice to see you finally acknowledging the variations in the way that "Jew" was interpreted during the first century. If I didn't know better, I would consider the possibility that you had actually been paying attention.

None of which refutes my comments concerning the unlikelihood of pious and observant Jews violating the first two commandments.

[tabibito]

None of which refutes my comments concerning the unlikelihood of pious and observant Jews violating the first two commandments.

You have yet to demonstrate that service in the Roman army would have required such violations. You merely speculate that no provision would have been made for a serving Jew to exercise the freedom of religion that generally prevailed in Roman society. That speculation runs counter to the attested documentation that observant Jews were in fact numbered among Roman soldiers.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You have yet to demonstrate that service in the Roman army would have required such violations.

I have on several occasions referred to the necessity of the recruit swearing the oath of allegiance to the Roman emperor. That ceremony would have taken place in front of the standards of that specific unit and in the presence of the commanding officer [or that commanding officer's deputy].

Furthermore, we know from Josephus of the outrage caused by Pilate introducing the auxiliary standards into the Antonia in Jerusalem, albeit under cover darkness. The very fact that these "idolatrous pagan images" had been brought into the city caused fury among the Jewish population.

Yet you are contending that similar observant and pious Jews would have had no qualms in swearing an oath of fealty to a heathen foreign overlord and in front of such "idolatrous pagan images".

How can this be reconciled?

.

[tabibito]

I have on several occasions referred to the necessity of the recruit swearing the oath of allegiance to the Roman emperor. That ceremony would have taken place in front of the standards of that specific unit and in the presence of the commanding officer [or that commanding officer's deputy].

Furthermore, we know from Josephus of the outrage caused by Pilate introducing the auxiliary standards into the Antonia in Jerusalem, albeit under cover darkness. The very fact that these "idolatrous pagan images" had been brought into the city caused fury among the Jewish population.

Yet you are contending that similar observant and pious Jews would have had no qualms in swearing an oath of fealty to a heathen foreign overlord and in front of such "idolatrous pagan images".

How can this be reconciled?

.

The historical record shows that observant Jews served in the Roman army. The means by which that might have been achieved are unknown.
Learn to live with the facts.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The historical record shows that observant Jews served in the Roman army.

The historical record shows no such thing.

[tabibito]

The historical record shows no such thing.

Of course it doesn't. The authors making note of it simply concocted the story of records showing that serving Roman soldiers also held office in synagogues so that you would have something more to scoff at.

[One Bad Pig]

And yet another duplicate post from another thread.

...and can therefore be summarily dismissed, amirite?

I do appreciate the occasional admission that you're just here to troll, and need not be taken seriously.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Of course it doesn't. The authors making note of it simply concocted the story of records showing that serving Roman soldiers also held office in synagogues so that you would have something more to scoff at.

Then do feel free to provide some attested historical and contemporary evidence that specifically details where pious and observant Jews are described swearing an oath to the Roman emperor in front of the military standards of a Roman army unit.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

...and can therefore be summarily dismissed, amirite?

I do appreciate the occasional admission that you're just here to troll, and need not be taken seriously.

rogue06 does have an unfortunate tendency, for no apparent reason, to repeat posts he has already made

Perhaps it has something to do with issues he has over his short term memory.

[tabibito]

Then do feel free to provide some attested historical and contemporary evidence that specifically details where pious and observant Jews are described swearing an oath to the Roman emperor in front of the military standards of a Roman army unit.

Now then -- what is in the military oath that would cause a Jew any problems?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramentum_(oath)
The text of the oath was recorded by Vegetius:^[8]
Iurant autem milites omnia se strenue facturos quae praeceperit imperator, numquam deserturos militiam nec mortem recusaturos pro Romana republica!("But the soldiers swear that they shall faithfully execute all that the Emperor commands, that they shall never desert the service, and that they shall not seek to avoid death for the Roman republic!")