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Abstinence and the Virgin Birth (Which I do affirm)

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  • Abstinence and the Virgin Birth (Which I do affirm)

    Is this a valid point against the virgin birth, which I do affirm?

    ------------

    Is there a problem with holding to abstinence and the virgin birth (Which I do affirm)? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.



    This one has been going around Facebook a bit and as the main virgin birth guy (Which I do affirm), I figure I should be the one to address it. Looking at this, I do wonder what the main contention is. As is the problem with memes, it’s rarely clear.

    So let’s consider if it’s a moral objection. Can you believe in the virgin birth, which I do affirm, and still believe in practicing abstinence? Yes. You recognize that this is a miracle that has taken place and that Mary herself did nothing wrong in this case.

    By the way, along those lines, all Christians know that there are other forms of birth control. What we do know also is that when practiced, abstinence is the only one that is 100% effective. For most of the world today, it’s just incredible to think of a person going through life without having sex. The premise of a movie like the 40 Year-Old Virgin is meant to be obvious.

    So let’s go the more likely route. It’s meant to poke fun at us for believing in something that is unscientific. After all, this involves a miracle and don’t we know that those never happen.

    At this, I think even the most hardened skeptic would not want to try to take on the burden that there has never been a miracle in history and have to demonstrate this. How could you even begin to do that? What is more likely to be argued is that we do not have sufficient evidence to believe that a miracle has taken place in history.

    Thus, we get to the first problem. There is really no way to establish that a miracle has never taken place in history so why should it be treated with incredulity that a miracle has taken place. I actually call this the argument from incredulity. The problem is it only works if you accept a worldview at the start that says miracles never happen.

    Imagine if I made a similar argument.

    Christians: We know Christianity is true.

    Atheist: How?

    Christian: Because Jesus rose from the dead.

    Atheist: And how do we know that?

    Christian: Because Christianity is true.

    If you take at the start that a naturalistic philosophy is true and a miracle has never taken place, then obviously, a virgin birth, which I do affirm, has never taken place. However, that is the very claim under question. Has a miracle ever taken place?

    If you affirm the existing of God and have reasons for believing in such, then you have a basis for believing that a miracle has taken place or at least could take place. If someone wants to mock that because atheism is true or some version of metaphysics that denies miracles, then they need to establish that. Whatever your worldview, it does not work to go to the other side and say “Your position is laughable because it disagrees with my position.”

    In the end, I see no reason you cannot both affirm the virgin birth, which I do affirm, and consistently practice abstinence. Issues about birth control can be debated among ourselves. This is just more of the type of argument from incredulity that works on those with the mindset already of materialism, but not much of anyone else. It has strong rhetorical pull, but nothing logical behind it.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)
    Is there a problem with holding to abstinence and the virgin birth (Which I do affirm)? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. This one has been going around Facebook a bit and as the main virgin birth guy (Which I do affirm), I figure I should be the one to address it. … Continue reading Abstinence and the Virgin Birth (Which I do affirm)

  • #2
    I'm not sure there are very many folks who think the only birth control is abstinence. OTOH, there are many who think that abstinence is the best form of birth control.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      The belief in a virgin birth stems from a mistranslation and what constituted a "virgin" among first century Jews could be quite complicated.

      I would also add that those who practise prolonged and enforced celibacy can suffer serious psychological issues.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #4
        Simple fact: The gospel states that Mary declared that she did not know a man and asked, that being the case, how she could possibly fall pregnant.
        Fairy tales about the significance of the translation of "parthenos" are wholly irrelevant. The actual interpretation of the word is derived from the aformentioned context.
        Last edited by tabibito; 08-10-2022, 04:42 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Simple fact: The gospel states that Mary declared that she did not know a man and asked, that being the case, how she could possibly fall pregnant.
          Yet only the one gospel. Matthew mentions the holy spirit which has a distinct Hellenistic undertone!
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Yet only the one gospel. Matthew mentions the holy spirit which has a distinct Hellenistic undertone!
            When something is mentioned by more than one Gospel -- particularly if they agree on all the details -- atheist scoffers immediately cry "collusion"

            It's a no-win situation.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              When something is mentioned by more than one Gospel -- particularly if they agree on all the details -- atheist scoffers immediately cry "collusion"

              It's a no-win situation.
              The virgin birth is a myth - a charming one in some ways - but still a myth.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                The virgin birth is a myth - a charming one in some ways - but still a myth.
                That is your opinion -- one not based on facts -- but still just your opinion.

                H_A-dude.gif

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  That is your opinion -- one not based on facts -- but still just your opinion.

                  The fact is that as a mammal she could not have produced offspring without a male being involved.

                  Furthermore, stories of gods descending and impregnating mortal women to produce demi-gods or heroes was not exactly unknown in the Hellenised world of the first century.
                  Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-10-2022, 07:46 AM.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Much of the standard (orthodox) theology, developed during the late third century and after, is influenced by Hellenistic philosophy, true enough. The gospels predate that trend, as do a number of works by early writers referencing the virgin birth, Ignatius included.

                    Oddly enough, people of the first century considered a male's participation to be imperative in the process of procreation.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 08-10-2022, 08:13 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well guys.I guess we've been shown up. It's a fact you need a man and a woman to procreate. Who knew?!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        Well guys.I guess we've been shown up. It's a fact you need a man and a woman to procreate. Who knew?!
                        I never did get the facts of life speech from my parents.

                        This thread has been a real eyeopener.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          I never did get the facts of life speech from my parents.

                          This thread has been a real eyeopener.
                          And let's not forget, even though the Jews right in the very first book have the Holy Spirit, it's obviously better when reading a Jewish document to look to Greek ideas for backing first.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                            And let's not forget, even though the Jews right in the very first book have the Holy Spirit, it's obviously better when reading a Jewish document to look to Greek ideas for backing first.
                            I really should be taking notes.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Much of the standard (orthodox) theology, developed during the late third century and after, is influenced by Hellenistic philosophy, true enough. The gospels predate that trend, as do a number of works by early writers referencing the virgin birth, Ignatius included.
                              The Gospels were written in Greek. Ignatius of Antioch came from the Greek speaking world.

                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Oddly enough, people of the first century considered a male's participation to be imperative in the process of procreation.
                              Regardless of the ideas at the time concerning pregnancy and gestation and the role of men and women in that process, without a male partner to provide the necessary motile spermatozoon - there would be no offspring.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment

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