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No. Jesus was not Predicting the Transfiguration

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  • No. Jesus was not Predicting the Transfiguration

    What is being talked about?

    ------------

    Is the Transfiguration a prophecy fulfillment? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    The Transfiguration shows up in each of the Synoptic Gospels. Before each of them comes another passage.

    Matthew 16:

    27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    Mark 9:

    1: And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

    Luke 9:

    26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

    27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

    It makes sense to a lot of people to say that this is predicting the transfiguration. Unfortunately, both internet atheists and Christians often have the same problem. This verse is read in a literal sense often due to modern dispensationalism, but does it really fit to say this event is the fulfillment?

    No.

    Okay. See you next time!

    Oh?

    You want more than that?

    Okay.

    Let's start with the fact that this event takes place a week later in the Gospels. By that, it's usually not a great prophecy to predict something happening a week from now. Let's suppose even if we went with something like the 2024 presidential election which at this point is in the future. Make a prediction a week before it happens and all things being equal, you likely have a 50% chance of being right. Predict something no one thinks is even possible and you might be on to something.

    Not only that, but it's hard to see how this event is the Kingdom of God coming in power. I would have no problem saying that this is a hint of what is coming. I suspect that this is part of the reason these passages are closely tied together.

    Another problem with this is saying "Some here will not taste death until they see this." Not only is it hardly a prediction to say "Some people here will not die before a week passes", but it's also not really a lot of some if that some consists of just three people.

    This passage is also not about the return of Christ. No one had any thought really of Jesus leaving let alone returning at this point. This is something internet atheists often think is being talked about, yet they never do show where that is in the passage. It's read into it.

    As an Orthodox Preterist, I think the Kingdom of God coming into power being demonstrated was at 70 A.D. with the destruction of the temple. That would make sense also with the prediction of some would not die. It is something to say some would still be alive around 40 years later, especially in an age where most people had short lifespans.

    Christians need to realize Jesus is talking about something deeper than the Transfiguration and something that should have given His listeners, and us today, pause. Internet atheists need to realize this is apocalyptic language and not read it so woodenly. If someone thinks it's about the return of Christ, it's on them to show it.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)


    Is the Transfiguration a prophecy fulfillment? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. The Transfiguration shows up in each of the Synoptic Gospels. Before each of them comes another passage. Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person … Continue reading No. Jesus Was Not Predicting The Transfiguration

  • #2
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

    As an Orthodox Preterist, I think the Kingdom of God coming into power being demonstrated was at 70 A.D. with the destruction of the temple.
    How did God demonstrate this coming into power at 70 A.D.?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Esther View Post

      How did God demonstrate this coming into power at 70 A.D.?
      It was the vindication of his Christ and the new covenant over those who rejected and killed Jesus. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was the final passing away of the old covenant since the new and better covenant had come under Jesus.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

        It was the vindication of his Christ and the new covenant over those who rejected and killed Jesus. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was the final passing away of the old covenant since the new and better covenant had come under Jesus.
        Ok thanks for this interpretation and explanation. It is such a strange way of seeing things but thanks.

        I mean who knew there had to be a final passing away of the old covenant when Jesus ushered in the new one at the last supper.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Esther View Post

          Ok thanks for this interpretation and explanation. It is such a strange way of seeing things but thanks.

          I mean who knew there had to be a final passing away of the old covenant when Jesus ushered in the new one at the last supper.
          Jesus did predict the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse, although I'm not entirely sure that the disciples would have understood that as the passing of the old covenant at the time. But in the main, I draw my position largely from the author of Hebrews (which I believe was written before 70AD) who makes that connection plain.

          Scripture Verse: Hebrews 8:13

          When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

          The NET Bible First Edition

          © Copyright Original Source



          Scripture Verse: Hebrews 10:9

          10:9 then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second.

          The NET Bible First Edition

          © Copyright Original Source

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

            Jesus did predict the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse, although I'm not entirely sure that the disciples would have understood that as the passing of the old covenant at the time. But in the main, I draw my position largely from the author of Hebrews (which I believe was written before 70AD) who makes that connection plain.

            Scripture Verse: Hebrews 8:13

            When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

            The NET Bible First Edition

            © Copyright Original Source



            Scripture Verse: Hebrews 10:9

            10:9 then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second.

            The NET Bible First Edition

            © Copyright Original Source

            Saa. But when did the testator die?
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Saa. But when did the testator die?
              If by testator you mean the author of Hebrews, since the book's author is not named it isn't known. If, as many hold, that Paul was the author then he died under Nero circa 64-67 AD.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                If by testator you mean the author of Hebrews, since the book's author is not named it isn't known. If, as many hold, that Paul was the author then he died under Nero circa 64-67 AD.
                According to the author of Hebrews, a covenant/testament isn't brought into effect until the testator dies. (Hebrews 9:16-17)  So - whose death ushered in the New Covenant/Testament?
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  According to the author of Hebrews, a covenant/testament isn't brought into effect until the testator dies. (Hebrews 9:16-17)  So - whose death ushered in the New Covenant/Testament?
                  Ahh, I see - that wasn't a term I've ever heard before. Anyway, Jesus was the testator who ushered in the new covenant as I understand it. At the Last Supper he inaugurated what was predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34 when he took the cup and said "this is the new covenant in my blood". And he died the next day, but God raised him from the dead. This also squares with my understanding of Communion/Lord's Table where we take the bread and "wine" (grape juice since I'm American ) and, as Paul says, proclaim the Lord's death until he comes - which I take to mean we reaffirm our participation in the new covenant.

                  *edit for correct reference of the new covenant
                  Last edited by alaskazimm; 06-21-2022, 01:41 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Also to add that the 40ish year period between the inauguration of the new covenant and the final passing away of the old is not without parallel in the Old Testament where the generation of Israel who refused to enter the Promised Land died as they wandered for 40 years in the wilderness. Likewise, God granted a 40 year period for those who were under the old covenant to enter the new before judgement came in the form of the Roman armies. Maybe not an exact parallel but intriguing I think.

                    *edit to add a not in the proper place

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                      Jesus did predict the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse, although I'm not entirely sure that the disciples would have understood that as the passing of the old covenant at the time. But in the main, I draw my position largely from the author of Hebrews (which I believe was written before 70AD) who makes that connection plain.
                      I agree Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple but I do not see the connection between God demonstrating His power and the destroying of the temple in 70AD? How did God demonstrate His power? Not being obtuse but the Romans destroyed the temple?

                      Do you believe Jesus came back to earth after he ascended into heaven from the mount of Olives where the disciples saw him caught up into the air? I am just trying to get my head around the preterist view because it is so foreign to me.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Esther View Post

                        I agree Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple but I do not see the connection between God demonstrating His power and the destroying of the temple in 70AD? How did God demonstrate His power? Not being obtuse but the Romans destroyed the temple?

                        Do you believe Jesus came back to earth after he ascended into heaven from the mount of Olives where the disciples saw him caught up into the air? I am just trying to get my head around the preterist view because it is so foreign to me.


                        There is a problem with the Koine Greek to English mismatch in the interpretations of "coming" and "in." Erchomai can mean either come or go, and en can mean into (among a host of sub definitions). A preterist will interpret "erchomai en" as "coming into," where a futurist will interpret "erchomai en" as "going into," which would lead to the conclusion that the ascension fulfils the statement.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Esther View Post

                          I agree Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple but I do not see the connection between God demonstrating His power and the destroying of the temple in 70AD? How did God demonstrate His power? Not being obtuse but the Romans destroyed the temple?

                          Do you believe Jesus came back to earth after he ascended into heaven from the mount of Olives where the disciples saw him caught up into the air? I am just trying to get my head around the preterist view because it is so foreign to me.


                          The long and the short of it is that this was God demonstrating his power (authority) in judgement of those who killed his son and clung to the old covenant. They were judged and the means of keeping the old were removed. The Romans did indeed destroy the temple, but they were the instrument God used to judged the tenants of the vineyard who killed his son. The coming of Christ in that instance was not a physical coming but a coming in judgement on the nation in the same way that God came in judgement on Israel and Judah and used Assyria and Babylon as his instruments. See Isaiah 4:4, Isaiah 13:5, Isaiah 19:1 among other for language of God coming in judgement on a nation and using others as his instrument.

                          Preterists do not believe that Jesus has come again as in the second coming. At least the orthodox preterists don't.

                          I hope this helps somewhat; I'm not a very good wordsmith when writing.

                          Comment

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