Margaret Sanger and the Klan

[rogue06]

I see what you did there.

I knew I shoulda wrote mooses.

[Juvenal]

The elk was cited to illustrate just how nuts these folks were. And isn't moose …

I see what you did there.

[rogue06]

There’s room for discussion on the difference between legal and illegal removal, but not all the examples were valid.

Elk are linked to Canadians.

The elk was cited to illustrate just how nuts these folks were. And isn't moose rather than elks associated with Canuckistan. When I think of elks I think of Scandinavia -- although I vaguely remember something about moose being called elk in Vikingland.

[Juvenal]

The Wiki entry was just pointing out that he was well within his rights to have sold the manumission papers, and he was in financial difficulties (something Grant seemed to be in most of his life), but didn't. You have to wonder how many other people in those circumstances would have done the right thing. And I was just noting the value in modern terms.

But at least you recognize the validity of the examples unlike someone else still seeking a way to deny them.

There’s room for discussion on the difference between legal and illegal removal, but not all the examples were valid.

Elk are linked to Canadians.

[rogue06]

Thanks for the examples, but yikes! No, we don’t give people credit for the funds they could have received by making a man pay for being freed from slavery. What were you thinking.

The Wiki entry was just pointing out that he was well within his rights to have sold the manumission papers, and he was in financial difficulties (something Grant seemed to be in most of his life), but didn't. You have to wonder how many other people in those circumstances would have done the right thing. And I was just noting the value in modern terms.

But at least you recognize the validity of the examples unlike someone else still seeking a way to deny them.

[rogue06]

I'm sorry, but which of those statues were torn down because of ties to racism?

The statues of those racist cops^[1] who were killed on duty and the bust of that slaveholder (who never made him work and soon freed him). And the statue of Hans Christian Heg WAS targeted as a statue of a racist and even after the morons realized they tore down a statue of someone who actually led a militia that targeted slave-catchers in Wisconsin some of them shrugged their shoulders and declared that it represented systemic racism of the state.



1. BLM and other leftists kept telling us that the police are inherently racist -- which was a major reason they wanted them defunded.

[Juvenal]

A grand in 1859 is equivalent to about $30,000 in 2020 and a whole lot more after old Joe gets done.

Thanks for the examples, but yikes! No, we don’t give people credit for the funds they could have received by making a man pay for being freed from slavery. What were you thinking.

[Stoic]

After the OP made the statement that "statues, books, and paintings removed for the most tenuous links to racism," Stoic challenged its veracity:

Admittedly this was not directed to me but I knew of a couple instances that would qualify (even if I had some of the details wrong about one regarding Hans Christian Heg), so I figured that I'd post them and confirm that was indeed the case (although I'm only personally aware of statues).

If y'all want to explain or rationalize those acts, that's fine by me, but the fact is that it happened, which was what was called into question.

I'm sorry, but which of those statues were torn down because of ties to racism?

[rogue06]

Rioters aren't known for their rationality. If this was a thread decrying the senselessness of riots and rioters, then your examples would be appropriate (except for the Pioneer statue, which was removed due to protests by native Americans), and there would be no argument.

But the OP is comparing the treatment of Sanger to the treatment of people who have "the most tenuous links to racism", and if rioters had come across a statue of Margaret Sanger, they probably would have torn that down, too. The question is whether there are any examples of people who were no more connected to racism than Sanger who have been treated worse than Sanger, by people who were actually thinking about what they were doing.

Agreed. Rioters tend to destroy anything willy-nilly, including local businesses. If we are to be consistent, we should be arguing that the black-owned businesses that were destroyed in Minneapolis were being torn down due to a purported tie to white supremacy.

After the OP made the statement that "statues, books, and paintings removed for the most tenuous links to racism," Stoic challenged its veracity:

Do you have any examples of this happening? It seems beyond extreme to me.

Admittedly this was not directed to me but I knew of a couple instances that would qualify (even if I had some of the details wrong about one regarding Hans Christian Heg), so I figured that I'd post them and confirm that was indeed the case (although I'm only personally aware of statues).

If y'all want to explain or rationalize those acts, that's fine by me, but the fact is that it happened, which was what was called into question.

[KingsGambit]

Rioters aren't known for their rationality. If this was a thread decrying the senselessness of riots and rioters, then your examples would be appropriate (except for the Pioneer statue, which was removed due to protests by native Americans), and there would be no argument.

But the OP is comparing the treatment of Sanger to the treatment of people who have "the most tenuous links to racism", and if rioters had come across a statue of Margaret Sanger, they probably would have torn that down, too. The question is whether there are any examples of people who were no more connected to racism than Sanger who have been treated worse than Sanger, by people who were actually thinking about what they were doing.

Agreed. Rioters tend to destroy anything willy-nilly, including local businesses. If we are to be consistent, we should be arguing that the black-owned businesses that were destroyed in Minneapolis were being torn down due to a purported tie to white supremacy.

[Stoic]

Like the bust of Ulysses S. Grant that was torn down in San Francisco? Grant is probably best known for leading the Union army in its victory over the Confederacy which led to the abolishment of slavery.

Ulysses_S._Grant_by_Rupert_Schmid_-_Golden_Gate_Park,_San_Francisco,_CA_-_DSC05324.JPG

While it is true that he did once own a slave for a short time, as Wikipedia explains

The same year, Grant acquired a slave from his father-in-law, a thirty-five-year-old man named William Jones.^[100] Although Grant was not an abolitionist, he was not considered a "slavery man", and could not bring himself to force a slave to do work.^[101] In March 1859, Grant freed William by a manumission deed, potentially worth at least $1,000, when Grant needed the money.^[102]

A grand in 1859 is equivalent to about $30,000 in 2020 and a whole lot more after old Joe gets done.

There was a story about a Revolutionary War hero who was also an abolitionist getting his statue toppled which caused a good deal of commotion when it happened but I cannot find any details right now, so how about the statue in Richmond, Virginia dedicated to the police of that city killed in the line of duty? It was vandalized twice by rioters forcing its removal to prevent its destruction

Police_Statue_2_t580.jpg

Similarly, the Delaware Law Enforcement Memorial in Dover had the statue of a kneeling cop partially decapitated causing it to be removed for repairs.

There was also the Pioneer Statue in Oregon, which depicted a trapper, and had nothing to do with racism or slavery, but was vandalized and removed basically because it celebrated pioneers -- who were white and therefore obviously evil.

The Thomas Elk Fountain in Portland, Oregon, which features a statue of an Elk, was also damaged by rioters. I guess the elk was racist.


ETA: It wasn't a Revolutionary War figure who was an abolitionist, but rather a Union officer who was killed in combat at Chickamauga and was an abolitionist by the name of Hans Christian Heg. His statue was torn down, decapitated and thrown into a nearby river by BLM rioters in Madison, Wisconsin.

Again, to be clear, this was the statue honoring a Union officer who died fighting the Confederacy, who was an abolitionist, and who's statue was torn down and vandalized by some "mostly peaceful protestors"

Rioters aren't known for their rationality. If this was a thread decrying the senselessness of riots and rioters, then your examples would be appropriate (except for the Pioneer statue, which was removed due to protests by native Americans), and there would be no argument.

But the OP is comparing the treatment of Sanger to the treatment of people who have "the most tenuous links to racism", and if rioters had come across a statue of Margaret Sanger, they probably would have torn that down, too. The question is whether there are any examples of people who were no more connected to racism than Sanger who have been treated worse than Sanger, by people who were actually thinking about what they were doing.

[rogue06]

Like the bust of Ulysses S. Grant that was torn down in San Francisco? Grant is probably best known for leading the Union army in its victory over the Confederacy which led to the abolishment of slavery.

Ulysses_S._Grant_by_Rupert_Schmid_-_Golden_Gate_Park,_San_Francisco,_CA_-_DSC05324.JPG

While it is true that he did once own a slave for a short time, as Wikipedia explains

The same year, Grant acquired a slave from his father-in-law, a thirty-five-year-old man named William Jones.^[100] Although Grant was not an abolitionist, he was not considered a "slavery man", and could not bring himself to force a slave to do work.^[101] In March 1859, Grant freed William by a manumission deed, potentially worth at least $1,000, when Grant needed the money.^[102]

A grand in 1859 is equivalent to about $30,000 in 2020 and a whole lot more after old Joe gets done.

There was a story about a Revolutionary War hero who was also an abolitionist getting his statue toppled which caused a good deal of commotion when it happened but I cannot find any details right now, so how about the statue in Richmond, Virginia dedicated to the police of that city killed in the line of duty? It was vandalized twice by rioters forcing its removal to prevent its destruction

Police_Statue_2_t580.jpg

Similarly, the Delaware Law Enforcement Memorial in Dover had the statue of a kneeling cop partially decapitated causing it to be removed for repairs.

There was also the Pioneer Statue in Oregon, which depicted a trapper, and had nothing to do with racism or slavery, but was vandalized and removed basically because it celebrated pioneers -- who were white and therefore obviously evil.

The Thomas Elk Fountain in Portland, Oregon, which features a statue of an Elk, was also damaged by rioters. I guess the elk was racist.


ETA: It wasn't a Revolutionary War figure who was an abolitionist, but rather a Union officer who was killed in combat at Chickamauga and was an abolitionist by the name of Hans Christian Heg. His statue was torn down, decapitated and thrown into a nearby river by BLM rioters in Madison, Wisconsin.

Again, to be clear, this was the statue honoring a Union officer who died fighting the Confederacy, who was an abolitionist, and who's statue was torn down and vandalized by some "mostly peaceful protestors"

[Juvenal]

I'm not sure what's insufficient about what I shared from Douglas Murray.

You claimed that folks with tenuous connections to racism were having their statues removed. You were asked for examples. You responded with a weblink. Arguing by weblink is frowned about around here. Nevertheless your respondent watched the video. He didn’t find an example.

Enough.

Provide an example or retract. Please.

And while you’re at it, feel free to explain how Sanger encouraging white supremacists to practice birth control promotes white supremacism.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I didn't see any examples there of your claim: "Some people have had statues, books, and paintings removed for the most tenuous links to racism, even if it was their ancestors and not them themselves."

The closest thing I found was Ted Hughes being (mis)identified as being associated with slavery. His works were never removed, though, nor (AFAICT) was there ever any plan to do so.

I'm not sure what's insufficient about what I shared from Douglas Murray.

[Stoic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2IiNd9c1OY&t=5s

I didn't see any examples there of your claim: "Some people have had statues, books, and paintings removed for the most tenuous links to racism, even if it was their ancestors and not them themselves."

The closest thing I found was Ted Hughes being (mis)identified as being associated with slavery. His works were never removed, though, nor (AFAICT) was there ever any plan to do so.