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Sins We Don't Speak Of

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  • #16
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I remember seeing Robert Gagnon make a case that homosexuality is either the worst sin or among the worst of sins but I can't for the life of me remember what his arguments were.

    I remember not being convinced but he wouldn't be the first Christian to rank sins in seriousness. Chrysostom famously said that using birth control was more serious than homicide.
    Paul ranked sexual immorality as the worst of sins (without distinguishing between sexual immoralities) because the person's sin is primarily against himself.
    I'm not convinced that any ranking is valid though - the penalty for unrepented sins is the same regardless of their nature.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Paul ranked sexual immorality as the worst of sins (without distinguishing between sexual immoralities) because the person's sin is primarily against himself.
      I'm not convinced that any ranking is valid though - the penalty for unrepented sins is the same regardless of their nature.
      I think rhetorically, that also has to be balanced with his contrast between Romans 1 and 2, where he tells the audience they are no better (and homosexuality is mentioned in chapter 1). I could see Paul saying something like that to a group of modern day Christians obsessed with condemning homosexuality to the exclusion of all other sins, while ignoring their own pet sins.
      Last edited by KingsGambit; 07-21-2021, 07:38 PM.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I remember seeing Robert Gagnon make a case that homosexuality is either the worst sin or among the worst of sins but I can't for the life of me remember what his arguments were.

        I remember not being convinced but he wouldn't be the first Christian to rank sins in seriousness. Chrysostom famously said that using birth control was more serious than homicide.
        And then there are preachers who say when God talks about other sins, he shouts, but when He talks about homosexuality He whispers.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I remember seeing Robert Gagnon make a case that homosexuality is either the worst sin or among the worst of sins but I can't for the life of me remember what his arguments were.

          I remember not being convinced but he wouldn't be the first Christian to rank sins in seriousness. Chrysostom famously said that using birth control was more serious than homicide.
          This article perhaps? He cites examples in the Bible itself of some sins being treated as more serious than others. That some disagree on which sins were which is definitely a matter of debate, but the precedent is already set in the canon.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

            This article perhaps? He cites examples in the Bible itself of some sins being treated as more serious than others. That some disagree on which sins were which is definitely a matter of debate, but the precedent is already set in the canon.
            We used to say.... "as a preacher, you can kill your wife, go to prison, come out, make a confession, and still be a preacher (in the Baptist church). But, God forbid you should get divorced -- you're FINISHED!!!"
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

              This article perhaps? He cites examples in the Bible itself of some sins being treated as more serious than others. That some disagree on which sins were which is definitely a matter of debate, but the precedent is already set in the canon.
              Ah - I hadn't realised that the claim that all sins are equal could be construed in the way portrayed by that article. I'll have to work on ways to rephrase the claim. The fact remains though that sin, regardless of its expression, creates a separation between the person and God. That is a key issue that preaching needs to address. At the same time, where sins that are promoted as acceptable, the falsehoods in that promotion need singling out.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Ah - I hadn't realised that the claim that all sins are equal could be construed in the way portrayed by that article. I'll have to work on ways to rephrase the claim. The fact remains though that sin, regardless of its expression, creates a separation between the person and God. That is a key issue that preaching needs to address. At the same time, where sins that are promoted as acceptable, the falsehoods in that promotion need singling out.
                Yeah, I've seen examples like that in the article before in real life.

                I'll agree that the most important aspect of what sin does i.e. separation from God, applies equally to all sin. However, I do think that certain sins are worse than others in that you will earn a worse punishment during said separation. Just as those who perform more good works or more important works will get a better reward for them in the new creation.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  We used to say.... "as a preacher, you can kill your wife, go to prison, come out, make a confession, and still be a preacher (in the Baptist church). But, God forbid you should get divorced -- you're FINISHED!!!"
                  There is logic there in that Paul says that an elder (I think) must be the husband of one wife.

                  But that doesn't explain why the Catholic Church.(and maybe others) has traditionally denied Communion to divorced/remarried people. What does explain that is viewing the state of being remarried as a perpetual, ongoing state of sin (whereas if you murdered someone, that's a done deal). Given how high divorce rates were in the Roman Empire, you would think that Paul would have specifically said he wanted people to break up second marriages when he discussed family/sexual ethics, but he didn't. So I don't see biblical cause for treating remarried people in the church like second class citizens.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    On a personal level, I am the one who is a bit convicted. I am angry at the way certain activists are aggressively targeting kids like mine. And I admit that I let that color my view of other people who aren't involved with that. I need to remind myself that all people need Jesus just the same and that no group of people are beyond his reach.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      On a personal level, I am the one who is a bit convicted. I am angry at the way certain activists are aggressively targeting kids like mine. And I admit that I let that color my view of other people who aren't involved with that. I need to remind myself that all people need Jesus just the same and that no group of people are beyond his reach.
                      Yeah, this issue bothers me too, and fortunately no kids were involved with the individual I am thinking of. It definitely was not a healthy relationship that he was in.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        There is logic there in that Paul says that an elder (I think) must be the husband of one wife.
                        Yes, and that's often interpreted as "a one woman man".

                        But that doesn't explain why the Catholic Church.(and maybe others) has traditionally denied Communion to divorced/remarried people. What does explain that is viewing the state of being remarried as a perpetual, ongoing state of sin (whereas if you murdered someone, that's a done deal).
                        Same way being a "non-practicing" homosexual as opposed to one who is living in sin.

                        Given how high divorce rates were in the Roman Empire, you would think that Paul would have specifically said he wanted people to break up second marriages when he discussed family/sexual ethics, but he didn't. So I don't see biblical cause for treating remarried people in the church like second class citizens.
                        I'm just saying we attach certain stigmas --- if a man committed murder prior to being saved, I'd see that differently than a preacher who commits murder. FAR different.
                        So, what about a man who was divorced before he was saved?

                        Lots of moving parts.


                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post


                          I'm just saying we attach certain stigmas --- if a man committed murder prior to being saved, I'd see that differently than a preacher who commits murder. FAR different.
                          So, what about a man who was divorced before he was saved?

                          Lots of moving parts.

                          And we also may want to give the benefit of the doubt if we don't know just what happened. The Bible says that Joseph was honorable because he just wanted to quietly break things off with Mary instead of publicly shame her, even though he would have had the right to (if she had really been unfaithful). I can respect a man who was abandoned by an unfaithful wife but who still chose to keep quiet and not drag his whole family through the mud.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                            And we also may want to give the benefit of the doubt if we don't know just what happened. The Bible says that Joseph was honorable because he just wanted to quietly break things off with Mary instead of publicly shame her, even though he would have had the right to (if she had really been unfaithful). I can respect a man who was abandoned by an unfaithful wife but who still chose to keep quiet and not drag his whole family through the mud.
                            Totally different culture, but, ok.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              Yes, and that's often interpreted as "a one woman man".



                              Same way being a "non-practicing" homosexual as opposed to one who is living in sin.



                              I'm just saying we attach certain stigmas --- if a man committed murder prior to being saved, I'd see that differently than a preacher who commits murder. FAR different.
                              So, what about a man who was divorced before he was saved?

                              Lots of moving parts.

                              I've got a friend who was a Baptist minister and can't be one now because he's divorced.

                              I mean, the circumstances don't matter at all apparently. It's just this is so horrible.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                                I've got a friend who was a Baptist minister and can't be one now because he's divorced.

                                I mean, the circumstances don't matter at all apparently. It's just this is so horrible.
                                So, what happens is that only the more liberal Baptist churches would accept him.

                                One of the Churches I pastored called a new pastor after I left who, after the fact, was found out to be divorced.

                                It caused quite a stir in the church because some of the people thought there's nothing wrong with that, and most of them thought he needed to resign.

                                When asked why he didn't disclose that up front, he responded, "I knew you wouldn't call me if you knew I was divorced".

                                In that case, it was a glaring failure on the pastor search committee's part, because they failed to do their homework.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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