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Should Christians Support Israel?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Esther View Post

    I never knew Luke was a gentile. So apart from Luke then, all the other writer's of the Bible were Jewish?
    Yes, as far as we know. Mark (John Mark) has a Latin name, but he was a cousin to Barnabas and his mother was named Mary, or Miriam. About his father we know nothing.
    When I Survey....

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

      So even though the text has God saying when they repent, He will bring them back to the land, that part is the one that gets to be ignored and/or changed? Got it.
      Please save me time and give me the text you are referring to.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Esther View Post

        Please save me time and give me the text you are referring to.
        They're included in the blog. It's not exhaustive, but a sample.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          They're included in the blog. It's not exhaustive, but a sample.


          Okay thanks. The texts in your blog were all OT. Not saying they do not stand, but believe NT clarity like the Romans 11 chapter I quoted to One Bad Pig will give a better more up to date view on the subject. I will be keen to read your blog if you have time on this chapter, in view of the this particular blog.

          Comment


          • #20
            Okay. So the covenant made in the Old Testament applies, but the conditions of that covenant in the same Old Testament don't apply?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Esther View Post

              Hi thanks. I give you Romans 11 in all its glory. I tried to just take out the pertinent verses to respond to your post but the whole chapter is a comprehensive response. Apologies for the long quote.

              Romans 11
              Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

              11 I ask then: Has God totally rejected and disowned His people? Of course not! Why, I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin!

              2 No, God has not rejected and disowned His people [whose destiny] He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

              3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets; they have demolished Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.

              4 But what is God’s reply to him? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal!

              5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness).

              6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].

              7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).

              8 As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.

              9 And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a [a]just retribution [[b]rebounding like a boomerang upon them];

              10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.

              11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.

              12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!

              13 But now I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I lay great stress on my ministry and magnify my office,

              14 In the hope of making my fellow Jews jealous [in order to stir them up to imitate, copy, and appropriate], and thus managing to save some of them.

              15 For if their rejection and exclusion from the benefits of salvation were [overruled] for the reconciliation of a world to God, what will their acceptance and admission mean? [It will be nothing short of] life from the dead!

              16 Now if the first handful of dough offered as the firstfruits [Abraham and the patriarchs] is consecrated (holy), so is the whole mass [the nation of Israel]; and if the root [Abraham] is consecrated (holy), so are the branches.

              17 But if some of the branches were broken off, while you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share the richness [of the root and sap] of the olive tree,

              18 Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.

              19 You will say then, Branches were broken (pruned) off so that I might be grafted in!

              20 That is true. But they were broken (pruned) off because of their unbelief (their lack of real faith), and you are established through faith [because you do believe]. So do not become proud and conceited, but rather stand in awe and be reverently afraid.

              21 For if God did not spare the natural branches [because of unbelief], neither will He spare you [if you are guilty of the same offense].

              22 Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s gracious kindness to you—provided you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away).

              23 And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

              24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree.

              25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [c]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,

              26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

              27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.

              28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

              29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

              30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,

              31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you—through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].

              32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].

              33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!

              34 For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has understood His thoughts, or who has [ever] been His counselor?

              35 Or who has first given God anything that he might be paid back or that he could claim a recompense?

              36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. [For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him.] To Him be glory forever! Amen (so be it).
              Interesting that you think Romans 11 supports your position. The chapter makes it quite clear that unbelieving Israel has been cut off for its unbelief, although those who believe can be grafted back in. Is there any evidence modern Israel has turned to belief in Jesus the Christ? The true Israel is the church, not the geographic region.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Interesting that you think Romans 11 supports your position. The chapter makes it quite clear that unbelieving Israel has been cut off for its unbelief, although those who believe can be grafted back in. Is there any evidence modern Israel has turned to belief in Jesus the Christ? The true Israel is the church, not the geographic region.
                The OP asks the question whether Christians should support Israel and my answer is yes. (Many times over). We should be filled with gratitude that God cut off the natural branches (the Jewish people) so that us Gentile Christians could be grafted into the people of God. I am putting this very clumsily in contrast to the Romans 11 scripture I quoted.

                The issue of the true Israel being the church is for a different thread I suppose but is a concept which I do not see in scripture at all. God's covenant with the Jewish people and geographical Israel stand and are irrevocable: Romans 11:25-29

                25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [c]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,

                26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

                27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.

                28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

                29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Esther View Post

                  The OP asks the question whether Christians should support Israel and my answer is yes. (Many times over). We should be filled with gratitude that God cut off the natural branches (the Jewish people) so that us Gentile Christians could be grafted into the people of God. I am putting this very clumsily in contrast to the Romans 11 scripture I quoted.

                  The issue of the true Israel being the church is for a different thread I suppose but is a concept which I do not see in scripture at all. God's covenant with the Jewish people and geographical Israel stand and are irrevocable: Romans 11:25-29

                  25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [c]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,

                  26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

                  27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.

                  28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

                  29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
                  And yet nothing in here is about the land and you say the covenant is irrevocable, but apparently the standards of that covenant are not.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                    And yet nothing in here is about the land and you say the covenant is irrevocable, but apparently the standards of that covenant are not.
                    I believe there are great theological chasms I am never going to breach on this subject. At the very least, Christians should not be looking for reasons not to support Israel. The replacement theology where the Church has replaced the physical Israel in scripture is especially distasteful to me.

                    Why the attitude in your responses?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Esther View Post

                      I believe there are great theological chasms I am never going to breach on this subject. At the very least, Christians should not be looking for reasons not to support Israel. The replacement theology where the Church has replaced the physical Israel in scripture is especially distasteful to me.

                      Why the attitude in your responses?
                      It's not attitude but confusing. The covenant stipulations are stated in the Old Testament. That's what a testament is. It's a covenant.

                      Naturally, we would expect to find that covenant spelled out there and you say that covenant is still in force, but when it comes to the stipulations of that covenant and the part that Israel was supposed to respond, that is not in force. God's going to give them the blessings of the covenant if they are not faithful to it?

                      And replacement theology? Heck no. That is a misnomer term that is used. Go back to Romans 11. How many olive trees are there? One. God did not uproot the olive tree of Israel and plant a new one called the church. He took the church and grafted it into the tree that is Israel. All true Israel is the church. Note in a passage like 1 Cor. 10, Paul writes to a Gentile church and says "Our ancestors." The ancestors of Israel are the ancestors of the church. Jesus and John the Baptist both questioned the claims of the leaders to be children of Abraham. John said God could raise up children of Abraham from the stones and Jesus said the Judeans were of their father the devil, meaning those specific people and not Jews of all time. Bloodline doesn't make you Israel. Faith in Christ makes you Israel.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I know I'm weird, but I don't support Israel so much because they are "God's Chosen People", but because they are the only democracy in that region, they have been our ally, the desperately need a friend in the midst of a swarm of enemies, and they live in the land Christ walked and upon which so many events of the Bible occurred.

                        I do support several causes that promote the Gospel of Christ to the Jewish people, want very much for that nation to turn to the God of their Fathers, ultimately accepting Messiah.
                        I'm not sure Israel qualifies as an ally, IMO. It is a one-sided relationship really; we give them droves of money (to the tune of over $3 billion a year) and they openly spy on us. Talk about interfering in our elections, Israel certainly does, and it makes sense when you see how much money they get rom the US. They absolutely refuse to compromise on new settlements - even when it makes diplomacy very difficult for us.

                        But in the bigger picture, I just don't believe in unreciprocated relationships, or ones that cost us much more than it's worth.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                          I'm not sure Israel qualifies as an ally, IMO. It is a one-sided relationship really; we give them droves of money (to the tune of over $3 billion a year) and they openly spy on us. Talk about interfering in our elections, Israel certainly does, and it makes sense when you see how much money they get rom the US. They absolutely refuse to compromise on new settlements - even when it makes diplomacy very difficult for us.

                          But in the bigger picture, I just don't believe in unreciprocated relationships, or ones that cost us much more than it's worth.
                          As I've said elsewhere, it bothers me that many pro-lifers enthusiastically support increasing aid to a country that provides government funded abortions. Some have said 'we can't control what Israel does'. Maybe, but the least we can do is not pay for their abortions.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Esther View Post

                            Why the attitude in your responses?
                            I don't see any poor attitude in Nick's responses. One can disagree without being disagreeable.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                              As I've said elsewhere, it bothers me that many pro-lifers enthusiastically support increasing aid to a country that provides government funded abortions. Some have said 'we can't control what Israel does'. Maybe, but the least we can do is not pay for their abortions.
                              As Sparko mentioned, it is a secular government and not the biblical Israel. Too many Christians have a gut reaction to the thought of not supporting Israel at all costs, and that is why we're taken advantage. Israeli officials know this and they use it. That's why we can never get them to bend on the settlement issue because they know they will get their $3 billion a year no matter what, so why should they compromise? They will do what they want, period. It doesn't feel like an "ally" relationship, and the payout seems more like extortion to me.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                                Bloodline doesn't make you Israel. Faith in Christ makes you Israel.
                                It is both. (Not mutually exclusive).

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