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Should Christians Support Israel?

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  • Should Christians Support Israel?

    Where should your support go?

    Link

    -------

    Is Israel the nation to support? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Israel is facing trouble again and that means Christians in America have taken sides, as well as no doubt many other places in the world. However, America has a strong connection to futurism and dispensationalism especially. We often see ourselves as a chosen people and our ability to function is somehow tied to Israel. After all, aren’t the Jews the people of God?

    Now in this, I am not going to even begin to recommend solutions regarding conflict between Christians and Palestinians. I know some Christians who do think Palestine has a case and they are not anti-Semitic. That’s something else that needs to be said. Just because someone thinks the Jews could be in the wrong does not mean you can go and kill all the Jews you want and treat them horribly.

    A few weeks before this all broke out, I remember being on Facebook and seeing a post asking something along the lines of how Christians should see Jews today. I answered, “People who need Jesus just like everyone else does.” I stand by that 100%. Jews need their Messiah.

    However, any support I would give to Israel is not for theological reasons. Again, it seems to need to be constantly said that just because you do not support for theological reasons does not mean that you cannot support for any other reasons. It also doesn’t mean that you immediately jump over to the other side and think they’re all just fine.

    Modern end-times people have often tried to connect end-times prophecy with the formation of the state of Israel, but that has not been too successful. Some were speculating it would be within a generation, vis a vis the “this generation” prophecy of Jesus, of the founding of Israel that the “rapture” would take place. Well, that hasn’t happened. Then it was the Six-Day War which turned out to be a swing and a miss. So far, this hasn’t worked well.

    But isn’t Israel in the land? That means God was behind it. Right?

    I find it strange that the people in end-times circles who want to take the Bible so “literally” often ignore how the text makes repentance a constant requirement for returning to the land.

    Deuteronomy 4

    25 “When you father children and children’s children, and have grown old in the land, if you act corruptly by making a carved image in the form of anything, and by doing what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, so as to provoke him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice. 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.

    Deuteronomy 30

    “And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5 And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 And the Lord your God will put all these curses on your foes and enemies who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again obey the voice of the Lord and keep all his commandments that I command you today. 9 The Lord your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your cattle and in the fruit of your ground. For the Lord will again take delight in prospering you, as he took delight in your fathers, 10 when you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    1 Kings 8

    46 “If they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, 47 yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,’ 48 if they repent with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name, 49 then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause 50 and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you, and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them 51 (for they are your people, and your heritage, which you brought out of Egypt, from the midst of the iron furnace). 52 Let your eyes be open to the plea of your servant and to the plea of your people Israel, giving ear to them whenever they call to you. 53 For you separated them from among all the peoples of the earth to be your heritage, as you declared through Moses your servant, when you brought our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God.”

    Has anybody seen the nation en masse turning to Jesus as Messiah? I know several Jews are, but for the most part, Israel is still a secular nation. Now if you want to take the text literally, then that would indicate God is not the one directly behind this. That does not mean that you cannot support Israel. You can do so for other reasons. For example, I think Israel is a helpful buffer to have against Islam in the Middle East. Before anyone asks, I have not looked at the conflict between Israel and Palestine so I have no opinion on that one.

    We should also see if our interests are in line with Israel or not. Do we have the same goals? Are we truly friends or not? If Israel was doing something that was wrong, would we support them because they are Israel? Let’s suppose for some reason Israel had invaded Kuwait instead of Iraq around 30 years ago. Would we be supporting Israel then and attacking Kuwait? Would we ignore an SOS from Kuwait asking for help because Israel are our allies?

    None of this is also to speak ill of my dispensationalist friends. Most know that I don’t consider the view to have any Biblical credibility, but I am thankful for my brothers and sisters who hold this position not because they hold it, but because we’re all one in Christ. I also recommend they go and look at the passages about returning to the land and see how often repentance is mentioned.

    By all means also, pray for Israel if you desire, but I would also add to pray that everyone over there, Jew and Gentile both, come to Messiah Jesus.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)

  • #2
    I know I'm weird, but I don't support Israel so much because they are "God's Chosen People", but because they are the only democracy in that region, they have been our ally, the desperately need a friend in the midst of a swarm of enemies, and they live in the land Christ walked and upon which so many events of the Bible occurred.

    I do support several causes that promote the Gospel of Christ to the Jewish people, want very much for that nation to turn to the God of their Fathers, ultimately accepting Messiah.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I know I'm weird, but I don't support Israel so much because they are "God's Chosen People", but because they are the only democracy in that region, they have been our ally, the desperately need a friend in the midst of a swarm of enemies, and they live in the land Christ walked and upon which so many events of the Bible occurred.

      I do support several causes that promote the Gospel of Christ to the Jewish people, want very much for that nation to turn to the God of their Fathers, ultimately accepting Messiah.
      yeah same here. The current "Israel" is a secular government, not really the biblical Israel.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        yeah same here. The current "Israel" is a secular government, not really the biblical Israel.
        I think there are enough Jews (religious) that there's definitely a link with the Biblical Israel, but, yeah.. .no.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I know I'm weird, but I don't support Israel so much because they are "God's Chosen People", but because they are the only democracy in that region, they have been our ally, the desperately need a friend in the midst of a swarm of enemies, and they live in the land Christ walked and upon which so many events of the Bible occurred.

          I do support several causes that promote the Gospel of Christ to the Jewish people, want very much for that nation to turn to the God of their Fathers, ultimately accepting Messiah.
          We already knew you're weird. That's not news.

          I'm with you on this though.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

            We already knew you're weird. That's not news.

            I'm with you on this though.
            Let's be honest, anyone on TWeb probably isn't "normal".

            Comment


            • #7
              Salvation comes from the Jews. Every one of the books of the Bible are written by a Jew. Not a Baptist in the bunch as John Hagee says. John 4:22.

              22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

              God's promise to Abraham and his descendants still stands. Genesis 12:1-3.



              Promises to Abram


              12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

              “Get out of your country,
              From your family
              And from your father’s house,
              To a land that I will show you.
              2 I will make you a great nation;
              I will bless you
              And make your name great;
              And you shall be a blessing.
              3 I will bless those who bless you,
              And I will curse him who curses you;
              And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                Salvation comes from the Jews. Every one of the books of the Bible are written by a Jew. Not a Baptist in the bunch as John Hagee says. John 4:22.

                22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
                Scripture Verse: Luke 11

                47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.

                © Copyright Original Source


                Scripture Verse: Acts 7

                51 You stiff-necked[a] and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.

                © Copyright Original Source


                Scripture Verse: 1 Thessalonians 2

                14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are [a]contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Modern Israel is at best the religious descendants of those who rejected Jesus as the Christ - at best, because Modern Israel is properly considered a secular state.
                God's promise to Abraham and his descendants still stands. Genesis 12:1-3.



                Promises to Abram


                12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

                “Get out of your country,
                From your family
                And from your father’s house,
                To a land that I will show you.
                2 I will make you a great nation;
                I will bless you
                And make your name great;
                And you shall be a blessing.
                3 I will bless those who bless you,
                And I will curse him who curses you;
                And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
                Scripture Verse: John 8

                37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

                39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

                Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

                Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

                42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

                © Copyright Original Source


                Scripture Verse: Luke 3

                7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood[a] of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

                © Copyright Original Source

                Last edited by One Bad Pig; 05-18-2021, 04:57 PM.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Esther View Post
                  Salvation comes from the Jews. Every one of the books of the Bible are written by a Jew. Not a Baptist in the bunch as John Hagee says. John 4:22.

                  22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

                  God's promise to Abraham and his descendants still stands. Genesis 12:1-3.



                  Promises to Abram


                  12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

                  “Get out of your country,
                  From your family
                  And from your father’s house,
                  To a land that I will show you.
                  2 I will make you a great nation;
                  I will bless you
                  And make your name great;
                  And you shall be a blessing.
                  3 I will bless those who bless you,
                  And I will curse him who curses you;
                  And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
                  So when did Israel repent?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Esther View Post
                    Salvation comes from the Jews. Every one of the books of the Bible are written by a Jew. Not a Baptist in the bunch as John Hagee says.
                    Luke was a gentile. And I would venture to guess that they were all Baptists. Charismatic Baptists, maybe. But no Methodists, Presbyterians, or Lutherans.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post

                      Luke was a gentile. And I would venture to guess that they were all Baptists. Charismatic Baptists, maybe. But no Methodists, Presbyterians, or Lutherans.
                      We would know for sure if we knew if they had recipes for fried chicken.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                        So when did Israel repent?
                        I do not believe repentance is a prerequisite which establishes God's covenant with the nation of Israel. God's covenant with the house of Israel is an everlasting one and still stands today.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Faber View Post

                          Luke was a gentile. And I would venture to guess that they were all Baptists. Charismatic Baptists, maybe. But no Methodists, Presbyterians, or Lutherans.
                          I never knew Luke was a gentile. So apart from Luke then, all the other writer's of the Bible were Jewish?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Scripture Verse: Luke 11

                            47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Scripture Verse: Acts 7

                            51 You stiff-necked[a] and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Scripture Verse: 1 Thessalonians 2

                            14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are [a]contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Modern Israel is at best the religious descendants of those who rejected Jesus as the Christ - at best, because Modern Israel is properly considered a secular state.

                            Scripture Verse: John 8

                            37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

                            39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

                            Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

                            Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

                            42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Scripture Verse: Luke 3

                            7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood[a] of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Hi thanks. I give you Romans 11 in all its glory. I tried to just take out the pertinent verses to respond to your post but the whole chapter is a comprehensive response. Apologies for the long quote.

                            Romans 11
                            Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

                            11 I ask then: Has God totally rejected and disowned His people? Of course not! Why, I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin!

                            2 No, God has not rejected and disowned His people [whose destiny] He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

                            3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets; they have demolished Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.

                            4 But what is God’s reply to him? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal!

                            5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness).

                            6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].

                            7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).

                            8 As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.

                            9 And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a [a]just retribution [[b]rebounding like a boomerang upon them];

                            10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.

                            11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.

                            12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!

                            13 But now I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I lay great stress on my ministry and magnify my office,

                            14 In the hope of making my fellow Jews jealous [in order to stir them up to imitate, copy, and appropriate], and thus managing to save some of them.

                            15 For if their rejection and exclusion from the benefits of salvation were [overruled] for the reconciliation of a world to God, what will their acceptance and admission mean? [It will be nothing short of] life from the dead!

                            16 Now if the first handful of dough offered as the firstfruits [Abraham and the patriarchs] is consecrated (holy), so is the whole mass [the nation of Israel]; and if the root [Abraham] is consecrated (holy), so are the branches.

                            17 But if some of the branches were broken off, while you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share the richness [of the root and sap] of the olive tree,

                            18 Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.

                            19 You will say then, Branches were broken (pruned) off so that I might be grafted in!

                            20 That is true. But they were broken (pruned) off because of their unbelief (their lack of real faith), and you are established through faith [because you do believe]. So do not become proud and conceited, but rather stand in awe and be reverently afraid.

                            21 For if God did not spare the natural branches [because of unbelief], neither will He spare you [if you are guilty of the same offense].

                            22 Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s gracious kindness to you—provided you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away).

                            23 And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

                            24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree.

                            25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the [c]full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,

                            26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

                            27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.

                            28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

                            29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

                            30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,

                            31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you—through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].

                            32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].

                            33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!

                            34 For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has understood His thoughts, or who has [ever] been His counselor?

                            35 Or who has first given God anything that he might be paid back or that he could claim a recompense?

                            36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. [For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him.] To Him be glory forever! Amen (so be it).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Esther View Post

                              I do not believe repentance is a prerequisite which establishes God's covenant with the nation of Israel. God's covenant with the house of Israel is an everlasting one and still stands today.
                              So even though the text has God saying when they repent, He will bring them back to the land, that part is the one that gets to be ignored and/or changed? Got it.

                              Comment

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