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Why I Don't Bother With The Losing Salvation Debate

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  • #16
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Gotta admire Nick. In starting a thread about why he does not debate this particular topic, he ignited a debate on this particular topic -- and quite predictably.
    Ignited debate? Seems like we're all just politely discussing this.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      I grew up in a denomination that beieves you can lose your salvation, and yet they also teach that once you receive "sanctification" (at some point in the future after you are saved, because you don't get the indwelling of the Spirit until the "second work of grace"), you no longer sin. My own grandfather wrote me a letter stating that, "We don't sin. We make mistakes and errors in judgment".

      I spent years watching people who claimed to be sanctified heading to the altar every week to, I don't know, ask for forgiveness? It was something I could not then, nor can I now, understand.

      When I got married and moved to another city, I started actually reading my Bible and discovered that there is no such thing as sanctification in the sense that this denomination defines it. I read verses of Jesus stating that all that the Father gives Him he will not cast out, and that Jesus holds me firmly in His hand. I watched family members live in defeat because even though they said they don't sin (a sin in and of itself) deep down they know they sin and live in fear that if they die before they ask forgiveness they will go to hell.

      I have tried to talk to my family about this, but they are so ingrained in the doctrine of that church that they can't see it. I had the same fear, once. And I was convinced that I was indeed not saved before a certain point in my life, when my daughter was 6 months old. I don't know if my family is saved and just living in defeat. I like to think they are, but that is God's concern, and theirs.

      I'm under no illusions that because I don't believe I can lose my salvation that it gives me license to sin. I know that if it was up to me, I WOULD lose my salvation. But I know that I am held tightly in the Father's hand, and I rejoice in how he has brought me into His new life.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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      • #18
        You can be saved and still end up with no rewards like a person escaping a house fire.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I grew up in a denomination that beieves you can lose your salvation, and yet they also teach that once you receive "sanctification" (at some point in the future after you are saved, because you don't get the indwelling of the Spirit until the "second work of grace"), you no longer sin. My own grandfather wrote me a letter stating that, "We don't sin. We make mistakes and errors in judgment".

          I spent years watching people who claimed to be sanctified heading to the altar every week to, I don't know, ask for forgiveness? It was something I could not then, nor can I now, understand.

          When I got married and moved to another city, I started actually reading my Bible and discovered that there is no such thing as sanctification in the sense that this denomination defines it. I read verses of Jesus stating that all that the Father gives Him he will not cast out, and that Jesus holds me firmly in His hand. I watched family members live in defeat because even though they said they don't sin (a sin in and of itself) deep down they know they sin and live in fear that if they die before they ask forgiveness they will go to hell.

          I have tried to talk to my family about this, but they are so ingrained in the doctrine of that church that they can't see it. I had the same fear, once. And I was convinced that I was indeed not saved before a certain point in my life, when my daughter was 6 months old. I don't know if my family is saved and just living in defeat. I like to think they are, but that is God's concern, and theirs.

          I'm under no illusions that because I don't believe I can lose my salvation that it gives me license to sin. I know that if it was up to me, I WOULD lose my salvation. But I know that I am held tightly in the Father's hand, and I rejoice in how he has brought me into His new life.
          I have heard some people who do believe your salvation depends on your final state before you die argue, "Well I won't become a Christian until I am on my deathbed, that way I can do what I want until then" - which is just as dumb an argument as, "I am saved so I can do whatever I want"

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            I grew up in a denomination that beieves you can lose your salvation, and yet they also teach that once you receive "sanctification" (at some point in the future after you are saved, because you don't get the indwelling of the Spirit until the "second work of grace"), you no longer sin. My own grandfather wrote me a letter stating that, "We don't sin. We make mistakes and errors in judgment".

            I spent years watching people who claimed to be sanctified heading to the altar every week to, I don't know, ask for forgiveness? It was something I could not then, nor can I now, understand.

            When I got married and moved to another city, I started actually reading my Bible and discovered that there is no such thing as sanctification in the sense that this denomination defines it. I read verses of Jesus stating that all that the Father gives Him he will not cast out, and that Jesus holds me firmly in His hand. I watched family members live in defeat because even though they said they don't sin (a sin in and of itself) deep down they know they sin and live in fear that if they die before they ask forgiveness they will go to hell.

            I have tried to talk to my family about this, but they are so ingrained in the doctrine of that church that they can't see it. I had the same fear, once. And I was convinced that I was indeed not saved before a certain point in my life, when my daughter was 6 months old. I don't know if my family is saved and just living in defeat. I like to think they are, but that is God's concern, and theirs.

            I'm under no illusions that because I don't believe I can lose my salvation that it gives me license to sin. I know that if it was up to me, I WOULD lose my salvation. But I know that I am held tightly in the Father's hand, and I rejoice in how he has brought me into His new life.
            My encouragement is always something like this....
            • First, do you know for sure that you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins, and to save you? (explaining that more if I need to - sometimes they think they're saved because they went through confirmation, or were baptized as a baby, or the old "I'm a good person")
            • When you asked Jesus to save you, did He? (following up more if need be - 1 John 1:9, etc)
            • Then the best thing you can do is to live for him, because living a Christian life is the identity of a born again Christian.
            I very rarely IF EVER run into somebody who's actually living for Jesus who has doubts about their Salvation.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              I have heard some people who do believe your salvation depends on your final state before you die argue, "Well I won't become a Christian until I am on my deathbed, that way I can do what I want until then" - which is just as dumb an argument as, "I am saved so I can do whatever I want"
              Not to mention that you'd be betting that you know when you're going to die. If you suddenly die in a car accident, there will be no chance for repentance.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                You can be saved and still end up with no rewards like a person escaping a house fire.
                1 Corinthians 3 seems to refer to people whose works don't hold up, not to people who outright abandon Christianity.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                  1 Corinthians 3 seems to refer to people whose works don't hold up, not to people who outright abandon Christianity.
                  Wasn't talking about apostates.
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post

                    Wasn't talking about apostates.
                    That's the crux of the eternal security debate; whether apostasy is even possible. Those who maintain that it is not will cite 1 John 2:19 to say that they were never Christians in the first place. Practically speaking, I don't think it makes much of a difference in practice.

                    I have seen a few people who argue that eternal security means that even if somebody was a Christian and later becomes an atheist, the fact that they were a Christian at one point in time means they are still saved. I don't think so.
                    Last edited by KingsGambit; 03-25-2021, 01:08 PM.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                      Not to mention that you'd be betting that you know when you're going to die. If you suddenly die in a car accident, there will be no chance for repentance.
                      I had a guy tell me he had that whipped....

                      "I don't care HOW I die, or WHEN I die -- I just want to know WHERE I did, cause I'll just never go there".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I'm closer to Classical Arminian than anything else. But that carries the unhappy conclusion that a decision to apostatize is irrevocable.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          I'm closer to Classical Arminian than anything else. But that carries the unhappy conclusion that a decision to apostatize is irrevocable.
                          "the unpardonable sin"?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I look at someone like Ray Boltz. Sang songs to the Lord for decades, preached the Gospel, etc. Then comes out as gay and moves in with his boyfriend. I know scripture says homosexuals won't inherit the Kingdom. So where does that leave Ray?
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              I look at someone like Ray Boltz. Sang songs to the Lord for decades, preached the Gospel, etc. Then comes out as gay and moves in with his boyfriend. I know scripture says homosexuals won't inherit the Kingdom. So where does that leave Ray?
                              I have this thing about musicians - or "Christian artists"..... I'm rather skeptical, because it seems like so many times, they need a place to "perform", and many performers get (or did in the old days) their "start" in Church. The "gospel community" is so open to talent like that, and I've seen SO MANY "Christian artists" who "get their start" in church or gospel or religious settings, then they get some fame and notoriety, and the next thing you know they "cross over" into the worldly music.

                              I have to wonder if some of them "went out from among us because they were never with us".

                              We have two churches in our area that have very 'professional' 'praise bands' - one of them is the Cowboy Church, and the same "praise team" you see there on Sunday mornings, you can find at the local watering hole on Saturday night - and they don't seem to see any problem with that.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                I look at someone like Ray Boltz. Sang songs to the Lord for decades, preached the Gospel, etc. Then comes out as gay and moves in with his boyfriend. I know scripture says homosexuals won't inherit the Kingdom. So where does that leave Ray?
                                Don't forget Ravi Zacharias.

                                I have serious doubts on where he is spending eternity.

                                Comment

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