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Welcome to World History 201.

Find out if Caesar crossed the Rubicon or threw a dollar across it.

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Amerika's global Midas touch

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    Won't touch much of this because you did very little to refute anything I stated in post #41, in fact, I believe you bolstered some of the things I said.
    I brought them into some form of logical argument, and basically refuted your entire premise in the OP to boot. As I've said more than once, all you have are innuendos that American involvement is the reason for the mess that these countries are in. But your idea of "worse off" is not consistent with the US' interests. But, since you have no experience with these matters, I can just chalk it up to immaturity.

    About post #9, we weren't specifically talking about Afghanistan. So, since we were being general, I was being general in regards to Syria (since it was part of the argument I presented in the OP).
    You mentioned 4 Islamic countries in the OP, then generally said that we were "arming and funding a present enemy". Now you want to claim that you only meant Syria. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

    Your argument that poppy production is increasing due to Taliban numbers decreasing is not just illogical but grossly contradictory to the facts of the situation.
    It is extremely consistent with the situation. The Taliban outlawed poppy production. When international inspectors visited Afghanistan before Sept 11, they found literally no trace of poppy fields. Once the Taliban was removed from power, the threat was reduced, and the fields returned. That's reality, Sean.

    We have to logically ask, who are US troops protecting the poppy fields from?
    From the International Community who funded the destruction of 7,300 Hectares of poppy fields last year, and from the Taliban, since they claim it is against Muslim law to grow them.

    Obviously, from the Taliban that want to rightly destroy them.
    And from the international governments who want them destroyed too. Which would completely take the livelihood of roughly 40% of the rural residents of Afghanistan. What do you think that would do? If we destroy the fields, the villagers will turn against us. If the Taliban does, they will cause even greater civil war there, and they would STILL blame us for allowing it.


    The increase in poppy production, trafficking and abuse is NOT due to decreasing Taliban
    Yes it is. Production was literally at 0 in 2000.

    -- as the Taliban are "dominating territory near crucial highways and cities that surround Kabul"
    The majority of the poppy fields are in the South and West, specifically the Helmand and Kandahar provinces. Kabul is one of the areas where US and allied forces are destroying the fields.

    -- but logically a result of US protection assistance in opium cultivation.
    That's why those 7,300 hectares were destroyed by coalition forces last year...

    I know that sucks and it gives you a sick feeling in your gut, but those are the facts.
    I don't have any "sick feeling" in my gut, because I know what I am talking about. I understand that war is hell, and that our government sometimes has to do what it needs to do to further its interests, and that those methods may be sickening sometimes, but they are mostly necessary.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 08-04-2014, 05:13 PM.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      I brought them into some form of logical argument, and basically refuted your entire premise in the OP to boot. As I've said more than once, all you have are innuendos that American involvement is the reason for the mess that these countries are in. But your idea of "worse off" is not consistent with the US' interests. But, since you have no experience with these matters, I can just chalk it up to immaturity.



      You mentioned 4 Islamic countries in the OP, then generally said that we were "arming and funding a present enemy". Now you want to claim that you only meant Syria. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.



      It is extremely consistent with the situation. The Taliban outlawed poppy production. When international inspectors visited Afghanistan before Sept 11, they found literally no trace of poppy fields. Once the Taliban was removed from power, the threat was reduced, and the fields returned. That's reality, Sean.



      From the International Community who funded the destruction of 7,300 Hectares of poppy fields last year, and from the Taliban, since they claim it is against Muslim law to grow them.



      And from the international governments who want them destroyed too. Which would completely take the livelihood of roughly 40% of the rural residents of Afghanistan. What do you think that would do? If we destroy the fields, the villagers will turn against us. If the Taliban does, they will cause even greater civil war there, and they would STILL blame us for allowing it.




      Yes it is. Production was literally at 0 in 2000.



      The majority of the poppy fields are in the South and West, specifically the Helmand and Kandahar provinces. Kabul is one of the areas where US and allied forces are destroying the fields.



      That's why those 7,300 hectares were destroyed by coalition forces last year...



      I don't have any "sick feeling" in my gut, because I know what I am talking about. I understand that war is hell, and that our government sometimes has to do what it needs to do to further its interests, and that those methods may be sickening sometimes, but they are mostly necessary.
      I love how you break up my posts into even more scattered pieces than the previous posts and address everything out of context. Note that things I state at the end of my posts may reflect things I state in the beginning of my posts.

      You are indeed correct that I’m ignorant about "US interests" in Iraq. That’s the problem. What we were told about the reasons for going was a lie. And so now we have Iraq more dangerous than before, with heavily armed, skilled and very wealthy Sunni jihadist radicals roaming the countryside with no clear US agenda for the initial invasion that opened up this vacuum (ironically, run by the same radical out-of-control Muslim jihadists we were told were linked to Hussein prior to invasion and used as a reason for invasion). Yes, I’m ignorant about US interests in Iraq, as are most Americans.

      In regards to Afghanistan, again, you are correct in that the fact that poppy fields were next to nil, as you point out, prior to invasion, and now production is through the roof with US military commanders admitting on video that they’re ordered to guard and assist in cultivation. It's funny how you affirm my argument -- Taliban destroyed opium production prior to invasion, now US military guard the fields from the Taliban lol. I also notice that you have provided no links to any of your statistics or assertions, but I’ll overlook that. Once again, your argument is illogical.

      The idea that US troops are protecting fields from Taliban and providing assistance for opium cultivation because they don’t want to piss of the locals is absurd on the face of it. They may believe that, but it’s still absurd. It’s debatable whether US troops should destroy the fields outrightly (after all, war is hell, right? -- and who cares if the locals are pissed), but they don’t have to guard and provide resources for cultivation.

      If US is indifferent and Taliban destroys the fields like they did prior to invasion, that’s on the Taliban, not the US military. In fact, from the NYT source you linked in your previous post it states that local Afghan authorities also want the fields destroyed, so let them deal with it and let the blame ride on them. US strategy of guarding and assisting cultivation is retarded and asinine. However, the fact remains -- regardless of how asinine the logic is -- opium production was nil prior to invasion, US troops are now ordered to both protect the fields from being destroyed and supply the resources for cultivation, hence, we have opium production and trafficking at record numbers in spite of Taliban strongholds increasing. Cause and effect are perfectly logical here.

      Let’s see if you can respond without breaking up my post into out-of-context pieces. I doubt you can.
      Last edited by seanD; 08-04-2014, 06:18 PM.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        I love how you break up my posts into even more scattered pieces than the previous posts and address everything out of context.
        It's called responding point by point. Look at ANY other thread on this site, and you will see that is exactly how responses are done. I will address the rest tomorrow.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          It's called responding point by point. Look at ANY other thread on this site, and you will see that is exactly how responses are done. I will address the rest tomorrow.
          Sean has expressed a dislike for point-by-point refutations previously.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            It's called responding point by point. Look at ANY other thread on this site, and you will see that is exactly how responses are done. I will address the rest tomorrow.
            I addressed your points in post #47 without having to resort to that tactic. And it is a forum tactic. It's popular in the forum because it's easy to obfuscate the post by breaking it up into fragments. It not only makes it hard for the person to follow (including lurkers reading it), makes it tedious for the parties involved (so it becomes one big contest of who can outlast the doldrums and redundancy of scattered posts exchange), but it makes it easy to respond to everything the person says out of context. I understand you responding to my OP point by point based on the countries I listed, but posts such as post #46 is a perfect example of how ridiculous this gets. I always notice that the posts get more and more fragmented as the discussion goes on, which is always an indication to me that my opponent has no real points to make. I equate it to two people debating in person, but instead of one making an argument while the other follows, it just becomes two people shouting over each other at the same. It would impossible for anyone to follow such a chaotic debate.
            Last edited by seanD; 08-04-2014, 08:55 PM.
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              I don't like what's being done, especially to Christians, in my name as an American.
              So, AGAIN, what is being done to Christians in your name?
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                I addressed your points in post #47 without having to resort to that tactic.
                With a wall of arguments that make rebuttals nothing but competing walls of text. It's not my fault your delicate sensibilities can't handle when someone separates two conjoined arguments into manageable parts where an adequate response can be made to that point alone. And I choose to no longer respond to your giant blocks of regurgitation. I've made my points, and I've made them how I see fit. Whine away.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Let’s see if you can respond without breaking up my post into out-of-context pieces. I doubt you can.
                  Suggestion. Try making one point at a time instead of a diatribe. Deal with a single point then move on after to the next point.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment

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