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Crucifixtion

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  • Crucifixtion

    We know the Romans used crucifixion to kill their victims.

    I remember reading that sometime before the Romans victims were killed and then crucified -- nailed to a tree -- as a warning to others, but I can't find the reference.

    Do any of you know what I am talking about?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Christian3; 03-31-2019, 11:35 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    We know the Romans used crucifixion to kill their victims.

    I remember reading that sometime before the Romans victims were killed and then crucified -- nailed to a tree -- as a warning to others, but I can't find the reference.

    Do any of you know what I am talking about?

    Thanks.
    I have just found this. Are you thinking of the Roman Argei religious ceremony?
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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    • #3
      I think it is the case that Romans used crucifixion, in large part, as a warning to others. If seems this was done with Jews rebelling against Rome and also other rebels.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by thormas View Post
        I think it is the case that Romans used crucifixion, in large part, as a warning to others. If seems this was done with Jews rebelling against Rome and also other rebels.
        It was a form of capital punishment reserved for the lower orders. Also remember that in Roman society all men were not equal before the law,

        "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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        • #5
          The invasion of Tyre by Alexander the Great in 332 BC was a vivid example, described by Quintus Curtius Rufus, Historiae Alexandri Magni (The History of Alexander The Great) iv.2-4.

          The citizens of Tyre had fled from the mainland to the island nearby as Alexander approached. Alexander sent messengers to the island, offering peace if they would allow him to enter the city and sacrifice to Heracles. The Tyrians murdered the messengers and threw their bodies into the sea. Eventually a fleet of 223 Greek warships arrived and blockaded the ports of Tyre. Then the invasion began.

          The Greek soldiers, enraged after seven months of frustration, poured into the city, barging into the homes and slaughtering men, women and children. 2,000 citizens of Tyre were taken and crucified, nailed to crosses along the shoreline of the city. Of the population of 40,000, the army killed 10,000 and the remaining 30,000 were taken into slavery.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            It was a form of capital punishment reserved for the lower orders. Also remember that in Roman society all men were not equal before the law,
            Exactly.

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            • #7
              Wasn't it a Phoenician punishment to begin with? If so it was interesting that the Greeks used it on the Tyrians.
              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                Wasn't it a Phoenician punishment to begin with? If so it was interesting that the Greeks used it on the Tyrians.
                It seems different societies practised crucifixion among them the Persians and Carthaginians. I also read [somewhere] that the practise may have its origins in fertility rites.
                "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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                • #9
                  Source: The history and pathology of crucifixion


                  Abstract


                  In antiquity crucifixion was considered one of the most brutal and shameful modes of death. Probably originating with the Assyrians and Babylonians, it was used systematically by the Persians in the 6th century BC. Alexander the Great brought it from there to the eastern Mediterranean countries in the 4th century BC, and the Phoenicians introduced it to Rome in the 3rd century BC. It was virtually never used in pre-Hellenic Greece. The Romans perfected crucifion for 500 years until it was abolished by Constantine I in the 4th century AD. Crucifixion in Roman times was applied mostly to slaves, disgraced soldiers, Christians and foreigners--only very rarely to Roman citizens....



                  Source

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Source: The history and pathology of crucifixion


                    Abstract


                    In antiquity crucifixion was considered one of the most brutal and shameful modes of death. Probably originating with the Assyrians and Babylonians, it was used systematically by the Persians in the 6th century BC. Alexander the Great brought it from there to the eastern Mediterranean countries in the 4th century BC, and the Phoenicians introduced it to Rome in the 3rd century BC. It was virtually never used in pre-Hellenic Greece. The Romans perfected crucifion for 500 years until it was abolished by Constantine I in the 4th century AD. Crucifixion in Roman times was applied mostly to slaves, disgraced soldiers, Christians and foreigners--only very rarely to Roman citizens....



                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    I am not entirely sure what relevance a paper on the pathology of crucifixion has to the ancient world's practise of this form of execution. I am also highly dubious of the claim made in that Abstract that the penalty was "only very rarely to Roman citizens..."

                    Where is the evidence to support that allegation?
                    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      I am not entirely sure what relevance a paper on the pathology of crucifixion has to the ancient world's practise of this form of execution. I am also highly dubious of the claim made in that Abstract that the penalty was "only very rarely to Roman citizens..."

                      Where is the evidence to support that allegation?
                      Cicero for one. But what would he know? Elsewhere he wrote that Roman citizens should not only not be crucified but that "the very mention of the cross should be far removed not only from a Roman citizen's body, but from his mind, his eyes, his ears"

                      According to Professor Winifred Mary Beard (an English scholar of Ancient Roman civilization who is Professor of Classics at the University of Cambridge and a fellow of Newnham College, and Royal Academy of Arts Professor of Ancient Literature) who is quoted in a BBC article on Crucifixion from ancient Rome to modern Syria:

                      If you are a Roman citizen you do not get crucified. St Peter gets crucified in Rome - in the martyrdom of Peter and Paul the difference is that Paul is a Roman citizen and Peter isn't.


                      Also from New World Encyclopedia:

                      Crucifixion was used for slaves, rebels, pirates and especially-despised enemies and criminals. Therefore crucifixion was considered a most shameful and disgraceful way to die. Condemned Roman citizens were usually exempt from crucifixion (like feudal nobles from hanging, dying more honorably by decapitation) except for major crimes against the state, such as high treason.

                      ...

                      Under ancient Roman penal practice, crucifixion was also a means of exhibiting the criminal’s low social status. It was the most dishonorable death imaginable, originally reserved for slaves, hence still called "supplicium servile" by Seneca, later extended to provincial freedmen of obscure station ('humiles'). The citizen class of Roman society were almost never subject to capital punishments; instead, they were fined or exiled. Josephus mentions Jews of high rank who were crucified, but this was to point out that their status had been taken away from them.


                      This echoed in an article on crucifixion in Theopedia:

                      Condemned Roman citizens were usually exempt from crucifixion (like feudal nobles from hanging) except for major crimes against the state, such as high treason.


                      And in an article on Roman crucifixion it matter-of-factly states

                      Crucifixion was considered a most shameful and disgraceful way to die and condemned Roman citizens were usually exempt from crucifixion.


                      Likewise in an article called The facts of crucifixion for The Catholic Education Resource Centre, Robert Gidley notes:

                      Crucifixion was also the most disgraceful form of execution. It was usually reserved for slaves, foreigners, revolutionaries, and vile criminals. The only time a Roman citizen was ever crucified was for desertion from the army.





                      I could continue to cite sources ad nauseum supporting this view but instead perhaps you would care to inform us exactly where did you get your information that caused you to be "highly dubious of the claim made in that Abstract that the penalty was "only very rarely to Roman citizens..."



                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Cicero for one. But what would he know?

                        That occurred after the civil wars of Marius and Sulla towards the end of the Republic and concerned one scandalous incident during the corruption and extortion trial of Verres who appears to have exceeded even the more general corruption of provincial governors at a period when the Republic was suffering a degree of chaos.

                        The rest of your citations support my contention. This was not something that occurred even “very rarely” to Roman citizens.

                        Within the army, as noted by Goldsworthy, the death penalty probably required the sanction of more senior officers but was inflicted for a wide range of offences. Falling asleep on duty was punishable by being clubbed to death by the comrades whose lives had been put at risk. Fleeing the battle field could lead to crucifixion or being thrown the beasts but stoning would probably have been the more usual punishment. Do not forget the importance of morale being maintained. Desertion was also a serious problem, although normally only deserters who had run away two or three times and then caught were executed; the exception being Corbulo who routinely had any deserters executed when they were caught.
                        "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          That occurred after the civil wars of Marius and Sulla towards the end of the Republic and concerned one scandalous incident during the corruption and extortion trial of Verres who appears to have exceeded even the more general corruption of provincial governors at a period when the Republic was suffering a degree of chaos.

                          The rest of your citations support my contention. This was not something that occurred even “very rarely” to Roman citizens.

                          Within the army, as noted by Goldsworthy, the death penalty probably required the sanction of more senior officers but was inflicted for a wide range of offences. Falling asleep on duty was punishable by being clubbed to death by the comrades whose lives had been put at risk. Fleeing the battle field could lead to crucifixion or being thrown the beasts but stoning would probably have been the more usual punishment. Do not forget the importance of morale being maintained. Desertion was also a serious problem, although normally only deserters who had run away two or three times and then caught were executed; the exception being Corbulo who routinely had any deserters executed when they were caught.
                          Arguing that the Roman army applied brutal discipline (look up the concept of decimation) does not prop up your erroneous claim. Even there crucifixion was rarely used and only for the worst cases and your source even notes that in the case where it could have been used other means of execution were generally employed.

                          The fact remains that as my sources, which for some reason you studiously ignored, show that crucifixion of a Roman citizen was "only very rarely to Roman citizens" just as Retief and Cillier asserted in their paper.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Arguing that the Roman army applied brutal discipline (look up the concept of decimation) does not prop up your erroneous claim. Even there crucifixion was rarely used and only for the worst cases and your source even notes that in the case where it could have been used other means of execution were generally employed.

                            The fact remains that as my sources, which for some reason you studiously ignored, show that crucifixion of a Roman citizen was "only very rarely to Roman citizens" just as Retief and Cillier asserted in their paper.
                            I should note that among atheists and other non-believers I've heard that the fact Rome rarely crucified citizens be used as the basis for the claim Jesus would not have been crucified but was either executed by other means or exiled (hence explaining an empty tomb). But citizenship wasn't given to the people of Judea which was a client state of Rome[1] although Herod and members of the aristocracy would have been granted it. So Jesus would not have been a member of the Provinciales (a lower rank of citizenship who essentially only possessed the rights afforded the ius gentium), He would have instead been a "subject" of the Roman Empire.



                            1. OTOH, Paul was from Tarsus which meant he was a Roman citizen and unlike Jesus and Peter was pretty much exempt from being crucified -- but not from being executed.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Arguing that the Roman army applied brutal discipline (look up the concept of decimation) does not prop up your erroneous claim. Even there crucifixion was rarely used and only for the worst cases and your source even notes that in the case where it could have been used other means of execution were generally employed.

                              The fact remains that as my sources, which for some reason you studiously ignored, show that crucifixion of a Roman citizen was "only very rarely to Roman citizens" just as Retief and Cillier asserted in their paper.
                              One recorded incident does not suggest "very rarely". And the rest of your citations prove my point.
                              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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