Originally posted by John Reece
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Find out if Caesar crossed the Rubicon or threw a dollar across it.
This is the forum where world history, in general, can be discussed. Since the WH201, like the other fora in the World History department, is not limited to participation along lines of theology, all may post here.
Please keep the Campus Decorum in mind when posting here--while 'belief' restrictions are not in place, common decency is.
The Tweb rules are in force . . . we're watching you.
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Noah: Is this a good movie? Is it good ancient history?
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by John Reece View Post
Meanwhile, a truly Christian film, "God's Not Dead," continues to soar at the box office. In its fourth weekend, the story of a student's confrontation with an atheist teacher (played by Kevin Sorbo) grossed $5.3 million, for a total of $40.7 million. With a production and promotional budget that totaled $4 million, "God's Not Dead" has to be closing in on a record as far as return on investment.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostA simple 'no' would suffice. I skimmed AIG's piece - Mattson's is far more damning in that he demonstrates that the movie draws heavily from Gnosticism - which, last I looked, was still heretical.
Seriously, the obsession with AIG is silly. There are a number of Christian and related sources that have raised objections so the issue is hardly one of following AIG.
Sorry. Misread what you said as that AiG didn't have a problem with it
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I know some here have complained about the environmental theme included in this movie, but this is acceptable as a midrashic theme. See, eg, the Midrash Rabbah on Qohelet 7,13:
בשעה שברא הקב"ה את אדם הראשון נטלו והחזירו על כל אילני גן עדן ואמר לו ראה מעשי כמה נאים ומשובחין הן וכל מה שבראתי בשבילך בראתי, תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי, שאם קלקלת אין מי שיתקן אחריך
When God created the first human beings, God led them around all the trees of the Garden of Eden and said: “Look at My works! See how beautiful they are—how excellent! For your sake I created them all. See to it that you do not spoil and destroy My world; for if you do, there will be no one else to repair it.”
Translation by the American Jewish World Service
http://www.on1foot.org/text/kahelet-rabbah-713
Note also how the midrash is itself rather contradictory to the plain sense of Qohelet 7,13.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI know some here have complained about the environmental theme included in this movie, but this is acceptable as a midrashic theme. See, eg, the Midrash Rabbah on Qohelet 7,13:
בשעה שברא הקב"ה את אדם הראשון נטלו והחזירו על כל אילני גן עדן ואמר לו ראה מעשי כמה נאים ומשובחין הן וכל מה שבראתי בשבילך בראתי, תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי, שאם קלקלת אין מי שיתקן אחריך
When God created the first human beings, God led them around all the trees of the Garden of Eden and said: “Look at My works! See how beautiful they are—how excellent! For your sake I created them all. See to it that you do not spoil and destroy My world; for if you do, there will be no one else to repair it.”
Translation by the American Jewish World Service
http://www.on1foot.org/text/kahelet-rabbah-713
Note also how the midrash is itself rather contradictory to the plain sense of Qohelet 7,13."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostWhat were the gnostic overtones in the film?
Mattson does a much better job than I could addressing your question."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostOther than as an annoying PC additive, I don't think anyone disagrees that good stewardship includes good environmental protection. The Gnosticism is a much more concerning issue with the movie.
But, OK, I think enough time has passed that I can allow myself to discuss this in a little more depth. (SPOILER ALERT):
Personally, I do not think the movie is gnostic, which is not an easy term to pin down. Mattson himself must acknowledge that there’s a whole continuum, and I do not interpret Aronofsky’s film anywhere near the gnostic end of the continuum.
I would not necessarily label Jewish monists, Neo-Platonists, and mystics as gnostic. Mattson’s gnostic interpretation is just that, his interpretation, and I don’t think it is a particularly good interpretation of the film. He interprets the lava monsters (which I could not stand), in which spirits, temporarily trapped in material bodies, eventually repent and return to their initial angelic state, as illustrating Aronofsky’s whole perspective. But that is an interpretative mistake in my opinion as it does not acknowledge that the creation and environmentalist theme clearly affirms the goodness of all creation, and which is certainly a much more pervasive and fundamental perspective of the film. While that is the nature of these characters (which I dislike immensely), one must admit that the Sons of God and the Nephillim are rather difficult to interpret even in the Bible and here Aronofsky uses some allusive language from the Book of Enoch and probably some left over CGI software from the Transformer movies.
Likewise, Mattson’s interpretation of Aronofsky’s portrayal of the Creator is based on only one character’s perspective, Noah’s (obviously an important character), but Noah eventually and very clearly repents of his one-time very limited interpretation of God’s intent and recognizes the God of Love who commands procreation. Nowhere does Aronofsky ever portray God himself as being in fact as Noah believes him to be during some of the movie. Yes, Noah goes a little stir crazy on the ark, and some will certainly find that insulting, but it is an acceptable midrash of the text in which God repents of creating man and does not immediately announce his true salvific purpose. What is Noah or the reader to think in the meantime? That’s the question that haggadic midrashim frequently try to answer and the midrashic process allows and invites, sometimes even demands, that contradictory answers be considered and frequently maintained. Noah’s temporary derangement is a chilling portrayal of how religion can go wrong sometimes, and I thought that was a valuable part of this midrash. It also allows other biblical themes to be brought in, eg, Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac in accord with his view of God’s will (note the change from Elohim to YHWH at the crucial point in that story). I did not see any indication that Aronofsky intended the Creator to be seen as an evil, lesser god or demiurge and Noah, even in his delusion, always knew that God was intent upon saving material and living creation, thus not indicating a gnostic metaphysical dualism.
Mattson says the Bible is not Aronofsky’s text, and it is very true that the Bible is not his only text, but it is clearly one of his texts. (He later acknowledged his statement was hyperbolic.) Mattson does not fault the studio for false advertising, as some do, but rather admits it was never advertised as The Bible’s Noah or The Biblical Story of Noah. But he faults Aronofsky for allegedly but understandably allowing the studio to assume that his film was a Biblical story. That’s a little contradictory. The studio did not advertise the movie as The Biblical Story of Noah even ‘though they assumed it was? It’s also very naďve. Who on God’s green earth believes that a studio or producers do not review the scripts? But I don’t disagree with others who feel that the studio might have allowed people to assume that the film was more purely Biblical. But that too was a little naďve on the part of those who would not typically inquire about a filmmaker’s reputation.
As for the snakeskin being an allusion to Ophites, Cainites, Sethites, and Naasseni, I don’t really know what to make of that and would like to hear Aronofsky’s explanation. Is this a reference to Jewish or Christian (or both) gnostic groups. I did not think of this possible allusion during the movie and just thought the snakeskin was merely intended as a mysterious element. I did not get the impression that the serpent was seen as a deity in the film. The serpent actually shed its skin in order to be able to appear young and better able to deceive Eve so the snake skin may not have been considered as evil, perhaps it was even recognition of how not to be deceived again. At any rate, the knowledge of good and evil obtained is part of the human condition and tradition. I don’t think Moses or John 3,14 were being alluded to, but those too are rather mysterious verses that may suggest midrashic interpretation to some.
Bottom line, I would never endorse this movie for anyone wanting to see a purely Biblical movie, but for those who appreciate midrash (some modernist and fundamentalists certainly do not), who like movies that purposefully interpret a book differently, even very, very much differently, who want to get a feel for a postmodern inter-textual and syncretistic approach to Noah and the Watchers, and most importantly who have a mature faith grounded in the Bible, good theological instincts, and a constant prayerful connection to God, you just might like it.
Did I mention that I was not terribly fond of the Watchers being portrayed as Transformer lava monsters?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Dr. Mattson's speculation is probably right-on in a lot of places, but I guess I didn't come away from the film with the same impressions.
The glowy Adam and Eve didn't make me think of disembodied persons, but a symbolic representation of the pure and innocent state of Adam and Eve until they ate the fruit.
I'm certain the fallen angels were Nephilim not Archons. I'm not familiar with any texts that claim Archons were embodied in molten earth (I guess the same can be said for Nephilim though). Are there any texts that mention embodied Archons at all?
I don't doubt Kabbala influence on the script, but is that strictly the same as gnostic influence?
A lot of the Kabbala influence that Dr. Mattson sees you could take from the Bible as well. The division of evil and good between the lineage of Cain and Seth is set forth in Gen. 5, and in some readings of the beginning of Gen. 6.
I don't know exactly what the snake skin is supposed to represent (other than a sort of tefillin) but I'm not convinced by Mattson's argument that the serpent is symbolic of the greater God (Wisdom/Sophia/what have you).
My biggest problem with the assertion that Noah is Gnostic propaganda is that, if true, its poorly represented. The major focal point of the film, from beginning to end, is the preservation of the earth and the animals therein. The material nature of the earth and animals would have been considered just as corrupt by the Gnostics as the material state of humanity.
Mattson writes:
But Noah fails “The Creator.” He cannot wipe out all life like his god wants him to do. “When I looked at those two girls, my heart was filled with nothing but love,” he says. Noah now has something “The Creator” doesn’t. Love. And Mercy. But where did he get it? And why now?
Second problem, why would the lesser Creator desire the destruction of the material world he created? Wouldn't that be the desire of the greater, non-material God?
Coincidentally, while trying to refresh my memory about certain scenes in the film, I came upon this rebuttal to Dr. Mattson's article called No, Noah is not Gnostic. (Say that ten times fast!)
I haven't read through it all, but this stuck out to me:
Last edited by OingoBoingo; 04-23-2014, 12:17 PM.
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Yes, that's a good interpretation of the snake skin. I didn't realize that it too had been glowing initially and did not glow for Tubal-Cain, but is encouraging that a few of us independently did not necessarily assume this to be symbolism of evil.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostYes, that's a good interpretation of the snake skin. I didn't realize that it too had been glowing initially and did not glow for Tubal-Cain, but is encouraging that a few of us independently did not necessarily assume this to be symbolism of evil.
Originally posted by Ari HandelWhen Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden, it says God gave them a garment of skin—sort of a parting gift from God to mankind as we leave Eden and go out into the world. So we wondered what that was—and as we looked at commentaries about it, one of the common ones was that it was the skin of the snake. We wondered why that would be, and it occurred to us that God made the snake. The snake was good, at first. But then, the Tempter arose through it. In our version, we have the snake shed that skin, and the shed skin is the shell of original goodness that the snake left behind when it became the Tempter. It’s a symbol of the Eden that we left behind. It’s a garment to clothe you spiritually.Originally posted by Genesis 3:21And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
Mattson responded to Handel's comments here.
As for the observation that the environmentalist theme doesn't fit easily with Gnostic ideas about the physical world being evil: I agree. That's the trouble with meshing ancient worldview material with modern worldview material. In the Relevant Magazine article I linked above, it sounds like Handel (and possibly Aronofsky) were appropriating the "glowing Adam" idea just as a way of saying that there's good inside everyone, battling to get out. That's a point of contact with Gnosticism's "spirit=good," but it doesn't mean that Handel and Aronofsky are full-blown second century Gnostics transported into the 21st Century. It means that artists appropriate whatever symbols they find at hand, for purposes of their own. They're subverting Gnosticism while simultaneously subverting the Old Testament Scriptures that Gnosticism itself subverted in a different manner.
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostA shed snakeskin doesn't seem like a very effective garment to me, and thus not a great elaboration on the text of Genesis 3:21. What do you think?
God made the snake. The snake was good, at first. But then, the Tempter arose through it. In our version, we have the snake shed that skin, and the shed skin is the shell of original goodness that the snake left behind when it became the Tempter. It’s a symbol of the Eden that we left behind. It’s a garment to clothe you spiritually.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWhen you get around to it, post the citations, please. I'm not familiar enough with it to look things up without a lot of time and effort I don't have time for right now, but I would like to read up.
ויעש יהוה אלהים לאדם ולאשתו כתנות עור וילבשם
ויעש יהוה אלהים לאדם ולאשתו כתנות אור וילבשם
Though the text would sound exactly the same (in some dialects, including modern Hebrew), the change in letter changes the meaning of 'skin' to 'light':
And the Lord God made for Adam and his woman tunics of skin [light] and he clothed them.
This was later understood to be their original clothing of glory prior to their disobedience, and hence we find intertestamental texts such as 3 Baruch 4,16 (cf also Ephraim the Syrian) speaking of Adam being condemned on account of the tree incident and being stripped (literally 'made naked') of the glory of God (τῆς δόξης θεοῦ ἐγυμνώθη)
http://ocp.tyndale.ca/3-greek-apocalypse-of-baruch#4-4
This, like much of the celestial Adamic imagery, has messianic implications, ie, the Messiah as the second Adam. It is said in the Pesikta de Rav Kahana that ‘The robes with which God will clothe the Messiah will shine from one end of the world to the other and the Jews will use its light and remark on his majestic clothing.’ Hints of this is already seen both in Q 17,24 (as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day) and in the synoptic Transfiguration narratives. And the ‘garment of immortality’ (ἔνδυμα τῆς ἀθανασίας), Hist Rech 12,3) that was originally Adam’s prior to the Fall, will once again be ours at the resurrection according to Paul (ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν, 1 Cor 15,53-54).
http://ocp.tyndale.ca/history-of-the-rechabites#12-12
We see this garment of glory in all the Aramaic Targumim (free midrashic translations from the Hebrew) of Gen 3,21, but in Aramaic the word ‘glory’ does not imply light. Thus it is in this linguistic tradition that we find the other midrashic interpretation of this verse that features more prominently in the movie Noah. Specifically in the Targum Pseudo Jonathan, we see the infamous serpent skin:
ועבד ייי אלקים לאדם ולאיתתיה לבושׁין דיקר מן משׁך חויא דאשׁלח מיניה על משׁך בישׁריהון חלף טופריהון דאישׁתלחו ואלבישׁינון
And the Lord God made (miraculously?) for Adam and for his wife for clothing of majesty from the skin of the serpent, which he had pulled from him, upon the skin of their flesh, instead of that (garment of) their childhood which he had taken, and he clothed them.
Thus God killed no beasts to make their clothes, but rather used the snake’s skin, which as a punishment, God had made to be shed every seven years (Tg Gen 3,14). Thus there is no reason to think that this midrashic element reflects any allusion to Ophite Gnosticism. Just good old fashioned Aramaic midrash.
http://targum.info/pj/pjgen1-6.htmLast edited by robrecht; 05-04-2014, 02:46 PM.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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