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Welcome to Church History 201.

Believe it or not, this is the exact place where Luther first posted the 94 thesis. We convinced him to add one.

This is the forum where the Church and its actions in history can be discussed. Since CH201, like the other fora in the History department, is not limited to participation along lines of theology, all may post here. This means that anything like Ecclesiology can be discussed without the restrictions of the Ecclesiology forum, and without the atmosphere of Ecclesiology 201 or the Apologetics-specific forum.

Please keep the Campus Decorum in mind when posting here--while 'belief' restrictions are not in place, common decency is and such is not the area to try disembowel anyone's faith.

If you need to refresh yourself on the decorm, now would be a good time.


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The Myth of Christian Martyrdom

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

    One made by my daughter's PhD History professor. I'll trust him over you any day.
    Ah the old fallacy of an appeal to prestige. Regardless of the qualifications of the individual who made the remark, it remains a sweeping generalisation.

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Has anyone ever died defending Cinderella's historicity?
    Christians were not persecuted by Rome for their religious beliefs. The entire issue was predominantly political. Of course Christians were always liable to be scapegoats for bad harvests, disease, or poor weather. Nor was personal spite from aggrieved/jealous neighbours or rival businessmen probably unknown when it came to denouncing Christians, or those suspected of being Christian. However, while it appears from the extant evidence that there were outbreaks of arrests prior to the persecutions under Decius, especially in the provinces. In those circumstances the judicial process used for the majority of criminal trials under the Principate was followed and this was the cognitio extra ordinem. In other words such capital trials in those provinces were conducted by the governor and only as and when the situation arose whereby individuals were denounced before the governor. Furthermore not all governors were blood thirsty monsters intent on slaughtering Christians. Tertullian notes that while one Roman governor Saturninus did condemn Christians to death his successors were more lenient and that they often encouraged Christians to recant or, on occasion, dismissed the charges brought against them.

    The important thing for Rome was to maintain order and peace in its provinces, to ensure taxes were duly collected, and rid any areas of mali homines [bad men].

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And you have proof it's spin... where?
    Melito of Sardis [died late second century] along with popular opinion would have us believe that early Christians were a beleaguered group sought out and persecuted by oppressive Roman emperors. Some one hundred and thirty years later in the early fourth century after Christianity became a legally tolerated religion, church historian Eusebius of Caesarea described various persecutions by assorted previous emperors despite the lack of any evidence that Christians were singled out for particular treatment. As is noted by De Ste Croix ,“We know of no persecution by the Roman government until 64, and there was no general persecution by the Roman government until that of Decius. Between 64 and 250 there were only isolated, local persecutions; and even if the total number of victims was quite considerable . . . most individual outbreaks must usually have been quite brief.” However, it should be noted that the section in Tacitus’ Annals concerning the Neronian persecution is questioned by some academics as to its authenticity.

    The Decian persecution also has to be viewed in its contemporary historical context. Decius was concerned with unity in the Empire. In
    235 CE Emperor Alexander Severus was murdered by his troops during a campaign along the Rhine. This, combined with increased raids by barbarian tribes and the inevitable political instability saw civil war including in 238 CE the Year of the Six Emperors. Hence when he became Emperor in 250 CE Decius decreed that everyone in the Empire should sacrifice to the divine spirit (genius) of the Emperor. This was to be done in front of a Roman magistrate and each subject would receive a libellus (literally a “little book”) as evidence of participation. These libelli were formally signed in the presence of witnesses. However, yet again, the decree did not see mass persecutions of Christians. Many chose exile, including Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, who in the 240s decided to take a rural retreat and sit out events. Many other Christians, once in front of the magistrate, decided to comply. We cannot know how many Christians escaped persecution by choosing exile, apostasy, or simply “lying low”.

    The letters between Pliny the Younger and Trajan dating from the early years of the second century also make it plain that a state organised rooting out of Christians was unknown, and Trajan’s reply that Christians should not be hunted down or accused anonymously stands as evidence that Rome was not undertaking a systematic purge of Christians.




    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #47
      Weren't the Christian religious beliefs also political statements? Perhaps not for them but for the pagan population?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by thormas View Post
        Weren't the Christian religious beliefs also political statements? Perhaps not for them but for the pagan population?
        If this was addressed to me, you will need to be more specific
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #49
          Just a general question. Given the worship of one God vs. paying respect to the many gods of Rome (and all they supposedly provided) one can see how Rome took such views as more than religious but infringing on the political.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by thormas View Post
            Just a general question. Given the worship of one God vs. paying respect to the many gods of Rome (and all they supposedly provided) one can see how Rome took such views as more than religious but infringing on the political.
            I would suggest you are not entirely familiar with the social behaviours of ancient Roman society. It was not like present day western society.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              I would suggest you are not entirely familiar with the social behaviours of ancient Roman society. It was not like present day western society.

              Are even critical scholars 'entirely' familiar?

              The persecutions still seems to be a political reaction to the Christian religious practice.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by thormas View Post


                Are even critical scholars 'entirely' familiar?

                The persecutions still seems to be a political reaction to the Christian religious practice.
                The ancient Hellenised world teemed with different religions. People could believe what they wished.

                However, clandestine sects and meetings were frowned upon by Rome because such situations had the potential for subversion. Even meetings in private houses [and we know from Paul that his early Christians sects met in private homes] had to be undertaken with discretion . We also know from letters between Pliny the Younger and Trajan that even Pliny's suggestion he establish a small organisation of men to fight fires was rejected by the Emperor.

                The official Roman religions were part of civic duty. The importance of revering the Gods ensured Rome’s preservation. Hence the significance of the Temples of Vesta and of Jupiter, the latter represented Rome’s sovereignty and immortality and its importance as a cultural, religious and civic centre of Rome should not be overlooked.

                Offering one’s pinch of incense to the gods was therefore a vital part of Roman civic and religious life. The Christians refused to do this. They also met clandestinely, many were from the lower orders, and the cult was known to have Jewish antecedents, which, after the events of 70 CE and 135 CE increased antipathy towards them.

                Nor should it be forgotten that Rome also suppressed other oriental cults that were considered subversive. Under both Augustus and Tiberius the Isaic Mysteries were repressed. Augustus considered them pornographic and Tiberius, having heard of a sexual scandal involving the cult, had the offenders crucified and images of Isis thrown into the Tiber. In the second century BCE Rome had also
                suppressed the Bacchanalia for its licentious and frenzied rituals.

                Roman society was remarkably conservative and viewed extraneous ideas and beliefs with a degree of suspicion.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  The ancient Hellenised world teemed with different religions. People could believe what they wished.

                  However, clandestine sects and meetings were frowned upon by Rome because such situations had the potential for subversion. Even meetings in private houses [and we know from Paul that his early Christians sects met in private homes] had to be undertaken with discretion . We also know from letters between Pliny the Younger and Trajan that even Pliny's suggestion he establish a small organisation of men to fight fires was rejected by the Emperor.

                  The official Roman religions were part of civic duty. The importance of revering the Gods ensured Rome’s preservation. Hence the significance of the Temples of Vesta and of Jupiter, the latter represented Rome’s sovereignty and immortality and its importance as a cultural, religious and civic centre of Rome should not be overlooked.

                  Offering one’s pinch of incense to the gods was therefore a vital part of Roman civic and religious life. The Christians refused to do this. They also met clandestinely, many were from the lower orders, and the cult was known to have Jewish antecedents, which, after the events of 70 CE and 135 CE increased antipathy towards them.

                  Nor should it be forgotten that Rome also suppressed other oriental cults that were considered subversive. Under both Augustus and Tiberius the Isaic Mysteries were repressed. Augustus considered them pornographic and Tiberius, having heard of a sexual scandal involving the cult, had the offenders crucified and images of Isis thrown into the Tiber. In the second century BCE Rome had also
                  suppressed the Bacchanalia for its licentious and frenzied rituals.

                  Roman society was remarkably conservative and viewed extraneous ideas and beliefs with a degree of suspicion.
                  Thus my point: the persecutions were a political reaction to the Christian religious practice.
                  Last edited by thormas; 09-30-2020, 10:02 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by thormas View Post

                    Thus my point: the persecutions were a political reaction to the Christian religious practice.
                    Not to their practices, given that various Mystery religions existed at the time. Refusing to offer their pinch of incense, meeting clandestinely, including members often from the lower orders, and having known Jewish antecedents were another matter.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Not to their practices, given that various Mystery religions existed at the time. Refusing to offer their pinch of incense, meeting clandestinely, including members often from the lower orders, and having known Jewish antecedents were another matter.
                      Agreed: the practice of not 'worshipping' other gods as expected in Rome.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by thormas View Post

                        Agreed: the practice of not 'worshipping' other gods as expected in Rome.
                        Well again, the Jews did not worship other gods either but [at least until those two major Jewish rebellions] their religion was respected and accepted, albeit no doubt some considered their practises and beliefs a little peculiar, and prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 CE the Jews had offered sacrifice on behalf of the emperor and were also excused military service.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Well again, the Jews did not worship other gods either but [at least until those two major Jewish rebellions] their religion was respected and accepted, albeit no doubt some considered their practises and beliefs a little peculiar, and prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 CE the Jews had offered sacrifice on behalf of the emperor and were also excused military service.
                          I was agreeing that the refusal to pay homage to other gods (a direct result of the Christian religious belief) and, as said the secret meetings, were leading factors in the persecutiions.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by thormas View Post

                            I was agreeing that the refusal to pay homage to other gods (a direct result of the Christian religious belief) and, as said the secret meetings, were leading factors in the persecutiions.
                            The primary reason for Christians being included in persecutions which were sporadic and usually localised, was their reluctance to make that offering of a pinch of incense.

                            Once they were prepared to do that, and many did, they could go home and believe what they wished.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              The primary reason for Christians being included in persecutions which were sporadic and usually localised, was their reluctance to make that offering of a pinch of incense.

                              Once they were prepared to do that, and many did, they could go home and believe what they wished.
                              Agreed.........and a wise decision on the part of those Christians.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by thormas View Post

                                Agreed.........and a wise decision on the part of those Christians.
                                Wasn't it the Protestant raised Henri IV who declared Paris is worth a Mass?
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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