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RC Church = Whore of Babylon, and that sort of stuff.

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  • RC Church = Whore of Babylon, and that sort of stuff.

    When I was a new Xian back in the '80s, I used to hear a lot of that, mainly from the Fundies in my circle of friends at college. They really seemed to push those beliefs at my then-girlfriend's CMA church, especially when there was a "Prophecy Conference."

    In the late '90s, I was told by seemingly well informed people at two reputable Internet discussion venues that back in the days of the Reformation, the beliefs that the Pope was the Antichrist and the RC Church was the Whore of Babylon were at least semi-official for Protestantism as a whole.

    1) Is that true?

    2) What about the OC? What did the Reformers believe about that branch of Xianity?
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

  • #2
    My understanding is that the Reformers thought about Eastern Orthodoxy even less than they thought about the Epistle of James.

    I don't know whether or to what degree the reformers thought of the Catholic Church as the WoB in an eschatological sense. That is, I'm pretty sure they frequently referred to the RCC as the WoB, but whether that was just a rheteorical excess by e.g. Luther or if they thought the RCC was the complete fulfillment of WoB in Revelation, I dunno.
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

    Comment


    • #3
      have you seen Jack Chick tracts?

      The Death Cookie!

      http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
      0074_11.gif

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        have you seen Jack Chick tracts?
        Oh yeah! And the full-size comic books. There were some for sale in my ex-girlfriend's church foyer, and a bunch in the Christian bookstore a few miles away.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Nationalist.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          When I was a new Xian back in the '80s, I used to hear a lot of that, mainly from the Fundies in my circle of friends at college. They really seemed to push those beliefs at my then-girlfriend's CMA church, especially when there was a "Prophecy Conference."

          In the late '90s, I was told by seemingly well informed people at two reputable Internet discussion venues that back in the days of the Reformation, the beliefs that the Pope was the Antichrist and the RC Church was the Whore of Babylon were at least semi-official for Protestantism as a whole.

          1) Is that true?

          2) What about the OC? What did the Reformers believe about that branch of Xianity?
          FWIU both sides liberally accused the other of being heretics and representing the Antichrist

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            Oh yeah! And the full-size comic books. There were some for sale in my ex-girlfriend's church foyer, and a bunch in the Christian bookstore a few miles away.
            I usually ran across them left atop toilets in public bathrooms. In some ways it seemed fitting.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              When I was a new Xian back in the '80s, I used to hear a lot of that, mainly from the Fundies in my circle of friends at college. They really seemed to push those beliefs at my then-girlfriend's CMA church, especially when there was a "Prophecy Conference."

              In the late '90s, I was told by seemingly well informed people at two reputable Internet discussion venues that back in the days of the Reformation, the beliefs that the Pope was the Antichrist and the RC Church was the Whore of Babylon were at least semi-official for Protestantism as a whole.

              1) Is that true?
              Both Calvin and Luther had extremely negative views of the Pope and the RCC, for obvious reasons. Below are a few quotes from Calvin.

              Source: Calvin's Commentary, Mt. 16:1-5


              Thus in our own day we find that not only from Popish temples, and from the dens of sophists and monks, does Antichrist vomit out her impostures, but that there is a Theology of the Court, which lends its aid to prop up the throne of Antichrist, so that no stratagem is left untried. But as Christ opposed the evils which then prevailed, and as he aroused the minds of his followers to guard against those which were the most dangerous, let us learn from his example to make a prudent inquiry what are the abuses that may now do us injury. Sooner shall water mix with fire than any man shall succeed in reconciling the inventions of the Pope with the Gospel. Whoever desires to become honestly a disciple of Christ, must be careful to keep his mind pure from those leavens; and if he has already imbibed them, he must labor to purify himself till none of their polluting effects remain. There are restless men, on the other hand, who have endeavored in various ways to corrupt sound doctrine, and, in guarding also against such impostures, believers must maintain a strict watch, that they may keep a perpetual Passover.

              © Copyright Original Source


              Source: Calvin's Commentary, 2 Cor. 10:14


              14. And no marvel. It is an argument from the greater to the less. “If Satan, who is the basest of all beings, nay, the head and chief of all wicked persons, transforms himself, what will his ministers do?” We have experience of both every day, for when Satan tempts us to evil, he does not profess to be what he really is. For he would lose his object, if we were made aware of his being a mortal enemy, and opposer of our salvation. Hence he always makes use of some cloak for the purpose of insnaring us, and does not immediately show his horns, (as the common expression is,) but rather makes it his endeavor to appear as an angel. Even when he tempts us to gross crimes, he makes use, nevertheless, of some pretext that he may draw us, when we are off our guard, into his nets. What then, if he attacks us under the appearance of good, nay, under the very title of God? His life-guards imitate, as I have said, the same artifice. These are golden preambles — “Vicar of Christ” — “Successor of Peter” — “Servant of God’s servants,” but let the masks be pulled off, and who and what will the Pope be discovered to be? Scarcely will Satan himself, his master, surpass so accomplished a scholar in any kind of abomination. It is a well known saying as to Babylon, that she gives poison to drink in a golden cup. (Jeremiah 51:7.) Hence we must be on our guard against masks.

              © Copyright Original Source


              Source: Calvin's Commentary, 1 Jn 2:18


              Moreover, under the Papacy there is nothing more notorious and common than the future coming of Antichrist; and yet they are so stupid, that they perceive not that his tyranny is exercised over them. Indeed, the same thing happens altogether to them as to the Jews; for though they hold the promises respecting the Messiah, they are yet further away from Christ than if they had never heard his name; for the imaginary Messiah, whom they have invented for themselves, turns them wholly aside from the Son of God; and were any one to shew Christ to them from the Law and the Prophets, he would only spend his labor in vain. The Popes have imagined an Antichrist, who for three years and a half is to harass the Church. All the marks by which the Spirit of God has pointed out Antichrist, clearly appear in the Pope; but the triennial Antichrist lays fast hold on the foolish Papists, so that seeing they do not see. Let us then remember, that Antichrist has not only been announced by the Spirit of God, but that also the marks by which he may be distinguished have been mentioned.

              © Copyright Original Source


              Source: Calvin's Commentary, James 4:12


              It hence appears what is to be thought of human precepts, which cast the snare of necessity on consciences. Some indeed would have us to shew modesty, when we call the Pope antichrist, who exercises tyranny over the souls of men, making himself a lawgiver equal to God. But we learn from this passage something far more, even that they are the members of Antichrist, who willingly submit to be thus ensnared, and that they thus renounce Christ, when they connect themselves with a man that is not only a mortal, but who also extols himself against him. It is, I say, a prevaricating obedience, rendered to the devil, when we allow any other than God himself to be a lawgiver to rule our souls.

              © Copyright Original Source

              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                My understanding is that the Reformers thought about Eastern Orthodoxy even less than they thought about the Epistle of James.
                That depends on the Reformer. Luther entered into discussions with the EOC that went a couple rounds before they politely asked him to stop. Jan Huss' brother was baptized EO - they found his baptismal certificate a few years ago.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  I usually ran across them left atop toilets in public bathrooms. In some ways it seemed fitting.
                  Did you flush them?
                  A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                  George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    have you seen Jack Chick tracts?

                    The Death Cookie!

                    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]18594[/ATTACH]
                    Because we all know Communion means death.
                    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                    George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      When I was a new Xian back in the '80s, I used to hear a lot of that, mainly from the Fundies in my circle of friends at college. They really seemed to push those beliefs at my then-girlfriend's CMA church, especially when there was a "Prophecy Conference."

                      In the late '90s, I was told by seemingly well informed people at two reputable Internet discussion venues that back in the days of the Reformation, the beliefs that the Pope was the Antichrist and the RC Church was the Whore of Babylon were at least semi-official for Protestantism as a whole.

                      1) Is that true?

                      2) What about the OC? What did the Reformers believe about that branch of Xianity?
                      1 John 2:18
                      " . . .the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, . . ."

                      That he is just one of the "antichrists" as there are many!!
                      BU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Going back to the OP, the idea of anything being "semi-official" within Protestantism doesn't make a lot of sense for obvious reasons.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          Going back to the OP, the idea of anything being "semi-official" within Protestantism doesn't make a lot of sense for obvious reasons.
                          Depends on the kind of Protestantism. Anglicans, Reformed, Lutherans, and Baptists (& probably others) have all issued Confessions of Faith, catechisms, and other credal documents.

                          There might be less inter-Church consensus between the various Protestant communions, but not none. And all of them share to some degree in a common Protestant tradition.

                          Besides, there can be real communion of hearts even where there is no or little agreement in doctrine and discipline. Communion of hearts is arguably far more important, and a far more fundamental kind of union between Protestants, than agreement in doctrine.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            have you seen Jack Chick tracts?

                            The Death Cookie!

                            http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]18594[/ATTACH]
                            And who could forget Alexander Hislop's Two Babylons. Talk about shoddy research for its time but it had an impact.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              have you seen Jack Chick tracts?

                              The Death Cookie!

                              http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]18594[/ATTACH]
                              I forced myself to read it as far as "IHS stands for Isis Horus and Set" - At that point it just became (I don't think there's a word for what it became.)
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment

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