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  • Dear Readers, Look at what is going on:

    Mike wants to move the dates of the Exodus several centuries later so that he can claim a presence of the Israelites in Kadesh-Barnea, but Tabby wants to move the dates many hundreds of years earlier to account for the plagues! Mike needs to account for the plagues in his proposed harmonization, and Tabby needs to account for a lack of evidence for any settlement activity in Kadesh-Barnea!

    ...And Christian apologist Dr. Frank Turek wants to move the whole story to Saudi Arabia!

    Christians are all over the place on this alleged historical event! It just proves that Christians will concoct any excuse to maintain their belief in their "inerrant" Bronze Age holy book!
    Last edited by Gary; 10-11-2015, 12:37 PM.

    Comment


    • So what do we have so far as evidence that the biblical story of the Exodus did not happen:

      1. A lack of archeological evidence for any mass exodus of Canaanite/Semitic slaves from Egypt at anytime in the history of Egypt.
      2. A lack of any record of the devastating plagues in the (two) time periods alleged for the Exodus.
      3. A lack of any record of a severely weakened Egyptian military and economy in the (two) alleged time periods.
      4. A lack of any record of a mass invasion of Canaan during the (two) alleged time periods.

      And now may I present another piece of evidence for why we should not trust the text which includes this tall tale: Anachronisms:

      Anachronisms are out of place words or phrases. For example, a story from the 18th century AD would not talk about computers, atomic power, or airplanes because they were not invented yet.

      1. In Genesis there is the repeated use of camels. Camels were not widely used until after 1000 BC. In the Joseph story there is a camel caravan carrying "gum, balm, and myrrh" which best fits the Arabian trade of the 8-7th centuries BC. Assyrian texts describe the use of camels in caravans in the 7th century. There is a large increase of camel bones in the archaeological record at this same time.

      2. In Genesis (26:1) the Philistines are encountered, but it was not until after 1200 BC that the Philistines settled on the coastal plain of Canaan. Gerar, a Philistine city is mentioned (Gen. 20:1), but excavations show this was just a small village in Iron Age I.

      3. The Arameans, Jacob's relatives, are not mentioned as an ethic group until 1100 BC. The Arameans did not become dominate until the 9th century BC. It is suggested that the stories of Jacob and Laban metaphorically express the stormy relationship between Aram and Israel.

      4. The kingdom Edom did not exist before the late 8th century BC. Edom became a serious rival of Israel only during the Assyrian period. Ammon and Moab were not nations at the time of Moses.

      5. The descendants of Ishmael (Gen. 25:12-15), the Kedarites are mentioned for the first time in the Assyrian records in the late 8th century BC. Before this time they lived beyond Israel's interest. Tema and Sheba are mentioned in Assyrian records between 8-6th centuries BC.

      6. The war in Genesis 14 seems only to fit the geography of the 7th century BC. En-mishpat or Kadesh most likely refers to Kadesh-barnea, a great oasis which was mainly occupied in the 7th and early 6th century.

      7. The capitals of the Assyrian empire are mentioned, Nineveh (7th century) and Calah its predecessor (Gen. 10:11). Haran was prosperous during the Neo-Assyrian period. Assyrian texts mention towns near Haran resembling the names of Terah, Nahor, and Serug, Abraham's forefathers (Gen. 11:22-26). There is also a town called Ur.

      The German Biblical scholar Martin Noth posits that "the patriarchs were originally quite separate regional ancestors, who were eventually brought together in a single genealogy in an effort to create a united history" (p.43). The stories of Abraham center around Hebron. Isaac centers around Beersheba, and Jacob around the northern hill country.

      Finkelstein and Silberman posit that Judah was a small isolated kingdom until the Assyrians conquered Israel in 720 BC. Many refugees flooded into Judah which then developed complex state institutions. There was a need to unite all the Israelites together. Thus a united history was created with a united kingdom. The patriarchal narratives attempt to redefine the unity of Israel. Abraham builds altars at Shechem and Bethel, the two most important cult centers of the northern kingdom, and Hebron in the south. Abraham functions as a unifier of both northern and southern traditions (p.44).

      Finkelstein and Silberman claim that all of these anachronisms indicate that Genesis was composed in the 8-7th century BC.

      Source: https://www.bibleandscience.com/bibl.../unearthed.htm
      Last edited by Gary; 10-11-2015, 12:49 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        Dear Readers, Look at what is going on:
        Yes dear reader lets look at what is going on

        Gary proclaims that there is no evidence of a settlement at Kadesh because previous research indicated that there was no settlement before 10th century and the accepted dates for many scholars is 1200 BC. He is reminded of a link he refused to read previously which blows his point. Gary admits that the researcher is not an evangelical conservative but friends with Finkelstein but is so vastly undeducated and ignorant he claims that friends of HIS OWN respected scholar are on the fringe of research claiming that date coincides with the exodus merely because they put egg on his face by showing there is potential evidence of a settlement at the time the non evangelistic scholars claim the exodus happened

        Then Gary, dear readers , in his VAST ignorance claims that the date in 1200s BC is not derived from any Biblical source but hasn't even read his own skeptic sites

        The reign of Ramesses II (Ramesses the Great) has long been considered a candidate for the Exodus, due to the biblical reference to the city of Per‐Ramesses[9], which was largely constructed during his reign.[10]. Ramesses II reigned for just over 66 years, circa 1279–1213 BCE.[8]
        http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

        Then dear readers Gary in again vast ignorance tries to claim that because there is a wide range of dates that are under consideration Christians are all over the place but dear reader the range of dates is derived from inadequacies in historical chronologies that have nothing to do with the Bible as this article shows even with a massive eruption that affected most of earth

        http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/10...eruption/66777

        Here with no issue of religion or the Bible or Christianity Scholars are unable to set a date within even a hundred years of an event that affected most of the then known world regardless of the fact that it was bam slam in the middle of recorded human history. So dear reader you can see Gary is fibbing that a range of dates in archaeology is a sign of Christians trying to evade things.

        Gary in likewise ignorance proclaims the debate is over but as the research indicates data is still coming in and this new data pushes back the pottery found at Kadesh hundreds of years. - so clearly research is ongoing.

        Finally dear reader when confronted with evidence of a settlement in Kadesh proving him wrong Gary appeals to conservative websites dating of exodus by evangelicals (who he previously stated in this thread are biased and not to be relied on) and claims a 1400 date for the exodus, ignorantly oblivious to the fact that date puts putting him right back in the time period of the Patterns of Evidence publication - which he stated previously was debunked -appeals to as well.

        In other words dear reader he is trying to jump out of the frying pan to end up in the flames but he is just too uneducated on the issues to realize it.

        Just ignorance on top of ignorance on top of ignorance

        This dear readers along with other blunders, refusing to read books and other comments of ignorance and bias is why Gary has been such a laughing stock in this thread
        Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-11-2015, 02:35 PM.

        Comment


        • Which part of post 3848
          "This is just outright weird ... I'm not buying the connection with exodus necessarily: it seems to be a foray into eisegesis."
          did Gary fail to understand as my skepticism of the article I copied?

          The Ipuwer Papyrus looks like a reasonably standard description of an invasion of almost anywhere in that period of history: the papyrus has only one point of application to the exodus. Also stated in post 3848:
          the references to Hebrew slaves (or more likely, Semitic) flies in the face of every claim to the contrary on atheist sites.

          Calculations of the timing of any event, including the exodus, based on the records of the Bible ARE likely to be somewhat mercurial for any event prior to the establishment of Shiloh (and maybe even the first temple). Right now, and acknowledging a possible confirmation bias, my money is on Amenhotep III as the Pharaoh of the exodus (with a side bet on Thutmose IV), which would put it 100 years (roughly) later than calculations based on the time (1446 BC) that - according to Gary's report - the Biblical records suggest.

          Originally posted by Gary
          You are a fundamentalist non-expert trying to fit the evidence into your ancient fable, instead of following the evidence to a scholarly conclusion.
          Even if the claim was true, this would be no more than the pot calling the kettle blacktail.The only difference would be "modern fable" as opposed to "ancient fable."

          I accept evidence.
          And no evidence as well, provided that there is confluence with his pre-conceived beliefs.

          There is evidence for the existence of Israelite kings Ahab, Omri, Josiah and others. I accept their historicity. You on the other will not accept any evidence that proves that your inerrant Bronze Age holy book made a mistake.
          Near as I can tell, Mikeenders is quite au fait with errors in the Bible. That Gary doesn't recognise errors as NOT showing the Bible to be wholly unreliable is a problem - given his own unreliability, should we perhaps ipso facto disregard everything he posts as worthless?

          You are a fundamentalist, the most dangerous and most untrustworthy of all "researchers".
          And yet more pot calling the kettle blacktail: on all points. The one consistently ignoring data that might have negative impact on a held position is none other than Gary himself.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • No archeological evidence, no commemoration of this devastating Egyptian defeat anywhere in the Near East, multiple anachronisms in the text...and the brain-washed continue to ask us to believe it is an historical fact.

            And upon this very, very tenuous "historical" event, Christians ask us to believe that a first century carpenter's son is the Creator of the Universe and the fulfillment of all these ancient events in Egypt and the Sinai; a peasant who lived a perfect life, died for the transgressions of the entire world, and then three days later, rose from the dead and levitated into outer space...to reign on a great throne, at the fringe of the farthest galaxy, to watch for two thousand years and counting, millions and millions and millions of men, women, and children suffer horrific violence, disease, and death...but do absolutely nothing to stop it. And we are asked to believe that this is reality.

            Good grief. This is the 21st century, for Pete's sake. It is time to abandon such outrageous superstitions.

            This entire concocted fiction is the biggest farce ever foisted on the human race! It is ignorant, superstitious nonsense! Use your educated brains and accept the obvious: It's just a fable. A silly, silly , superstitious fable.
            Last edited by Gary; 10-11-2015, 06:38 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              No archeological evidence,
              Yawn ........he tries desperately yet again to wipe the egg glued to his face.......Midian pottery at Kadesh dating to the conventional dating of exodus - multiple possible references to other point of the exodus accounts if you push it back to 14-1500s - not read Rohl yet eh? I mean now that you and him agree on a later date - magically in the last 48 hours - you should now be best buds so go read his work.

              Your claims of no evidence - debate over - matter settled are toast. You can post as often as you will but you cannot untoast it. Research continues and your consensus of one claiming the debate is over has been debunked.
              Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-11-2015, 06:52 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                Yawn ........he tries desperately yet again to wipe the egg glued to his face.......Midian pottery at Kadesh dating to the conventional dating of exodus - multiple possible references to other point of the exodus accounts if you push it back to 14-1500s - not read Rohl yet eh? I mean now that you and him agree on a later date - magically in the last 48 hours - you should now be best buds so go read his work.

                Your claims of no evidence - debate over - matter settled are toast
                Just how ignorant and foolish are you willing to appear to the educated world, Mike, to hold onto your ancient superstition? Your position on the dating of the Exodus is the fringe of the fringe. But even using your dating, Midianite dishware is not proof of millions of Hebrews camped out at Kadesh-Barnea for thirty-eight years.

                You are a fundamentalist, and on top of that a rabid fool.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post

                  You are a fundamentalist, and on top of that a rabid fool.
                  and yet I am not the one that just got his head handed to him by relating new data you were totally unaware of. Like I have said before don't play poker - your "tell" is so easy to see. Whenever you get face palmed by facts you go to name calling fundamental - so we can all see who is the rabid fool of this thread and the name of that poster begins with G and ends with Y

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                    and yet I am not the one that just got his head handed to him by relating new data you were totally unaware of. Like I have said before don't play poker - your "tell" is so easy to see. Whenever you get face palmed by facts you go to name calling fundamental - so we can all see who is the rabid fool of this thread and the name of that poster begins with G and ends with Y
                    You are rabid, Mike. Foaming at the mouth, rabid, I say again.

                    It was rabid fundamentalists like you who lit the piers to burn alive thousands of innocent "heretics" and "witches" while piously beating their chests, calling out to their imaginary, invisible ghost god for vindication of their heinous, immoral crimes.

                    The bones of millions of victims of your ancient cult cry out for justice against you and your fundamentalist brethren. Your cult must be unmasked for its crimes. It's fear-based superstitions must be debunked for the well-being of all humanity.
                    Last edited by Gary; 10-11-2015, 07:45 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      You are rabid, Mike. Foaming at the mouth, rabid, I say again.

                      It was rabid fundamentalists like you who lit the piers to burn alive thousands of innocent "heretics" and "witches" while piously beating their chests, calling out to their imaginary, invisible ghost god for vindication of their heinous, immoral crimes.
                      MORE GARY more. Let everyone see how desperate you are and without any thing of substance to come back with now that either late or early dates leaves you with some explaining to do. Tell us again how "friends of Finkelstein" and BAR are on the fringe of scholarship for claiming the date of the exodus matches the midian pottery at kadesh. Tell us all again how they are just rabid fundamentalists for claiming that.

                      Do you want the number for the magazine so you can tell then how they are like those that burned witches? HAHA

                      Its still quite funny so give me another round of laughter at least......lol
                      Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-11-2015, 08:13 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                        MORE GARY more. Let everyone see how desperate you are and without any thing of substance to come back with now that either late or early dates leaves you with some explaining to do. Tell us again how "friends of Finkelstein" and BAR are on the fringe of scholarship for claiming the date of the exodus matches the midian pottery at kadesh. Tell us all again how they are just rabid fundamentalists for claiming that.

                        Do you want the number for the magazine so you can tell then how they are like those that burned witches? HAHA

                        Its still quite funny so give me another round of laughter at least......lol
                        You are misquoting your source, Mike. Here it is:

                        "BAR coauthor Lily Singer-Avitz suggests that several finds discovered in the later strata, including Egyptian-style seals and seal impressions and local pottery sherds, should be associated with a Late Bronze Age–Early Iron I period presence at Tell el-Qudeirat. Particularly important are the sherds belonging to what is called Qurayyah Painted Ware found in different strata throughout the site. As Singer-Avitz argues:

                        'The Qurayyah Painted Ware was in use during the latter part of the Late Bronze and the Iron I periods, from the 12th to the 11th centuries B.C.E., about the time of the Exodus from Egypt according to those who attribute some historicity to this central Biblical event." "

                        She is not endorsing the historicity of the Exodus. And something odd, I could not find this quote in the research paper written by Singer-Avitz that your brief article refers to. Could you find it and give me a page number? I would like to confirm she really said this. Thanks, Mike.

                        And let me say this to everyone: If anywhere I said that there is NO archeological evidence for any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during ANY claimed time period for the Exodus, then Mike is right, I am wrong. The correct statement should be: there is no archeological evidence for any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during the fifteenth century, the time period when the majority of Christian Bible scholars say that the Exodus occurred. Is that better, Mike?
                        Last edited by Gary; 10-11-2015, 09:31 PM.

                        Comment


                        • So let's go with Mike and Dr. Hoffmeier and use the thirteenth century as the time of the Exodus. Using this date, there is archeological evidence of human settlement at Kadesh-Barnea. However, is there any evidence of the devastating plagues and the humiliating defeat of Pharaoh and his army at the hands of his runaway slaves? Even if it is true that the Egyptians would not want to record their military defeat, would we not find evidence of a very weakened, even decimated Egypt in the thirteenth century?

                          Also, Canaan was a protectorate, occupied territory of Egypt for an extended period of time in ancient history. If the Exodus occurred in the thirteenth century was Canaan still occupied by Egyptian troops? If so, why don't we read of confrontations between the Egyptian troops in Canaan and the invading Israelites. I will do a search for the date when Egyptian control of Canaan ended to confirm this.

                          Source: http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultu...t02-05enl.html

                          The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.

                          The New Kingdom (1570–1070 BC) followed the Second Intermediate Period and was succeeded by the Third Intermediate Period. It was Egypt’s most prosperous time and marked the zenith of its power.

                          Possibly as a result of the foreign rule of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period, the New Kingdom saw Egypt attempt to create a buffer between the Levant and Egypt, and attained its greatest territorial extent. It expanded far south into Nubia and held wide territories in the Near East. Egyptian armies fought Hittite armies for control of modern-day Syria.

                          Gary: Egypt seems to be at the height of its power. Fighting great battles as far away north as Syria. Are we really to believe that the Egyptians allowed the runaway slaves to occupy Canaan without a fight??
                          Last edited by Gary; 10-11-2015, 09:44 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                            You are misquoting your source, Mike. Here it is:
                            Stop lying, I quoted from the last paragraph in the article (and told you so) not the free non pay walled synopsis

                            read er and weep

                            It was here that Parr found characteristic Midian ware later calle Qurayyah Painted Ware - the same pottery found at Kadesh Barnea and dated to the period when the exodus is TRADITIONALLY dated. If the israelites were in Midian as the Bible says they were there is no reason to doubt that they proceeded to Kadesh Barnea.
                            I can't post the whole thing as I am quite sure it would violate their copyright but I am sure a decent library will probably have that copy in by now if you don't want to get a subscription.


                            And let me say this to everyone: If anywhere I said that there is NO archeological evidence for any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during ANY claimed time period for the Exodus, then Mike is right, I am wrong.
                            There is no if - you were wrong. As you yourself have stated the author according to you are "friends of finkelstein" and are no evangelical ahem fundamentalist group and they say it matches the TRADITIONAL Date of exodus. SO all your hogwash about me being on the fringe is just that - hogwash
                            Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-11-2015, 10:09 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              So let's go with Mike and Dr. Hoffmeier and use the thirteenth century as the time of the Exodus. Using this date, there is archeological evidence of human settlement at Kadesh-Barnea. However, is there any evidence of the devastating plagues and the humiliating defeat of Pharaoh and his army at the hands of his runaway slaves? ?
                              I don't even care how you try and dig yourself out of your blunders - You said there was no archaeological evidence AND the debate was done and finished. You goofed on both - using a traditional date and certainly not a fringe or purely evangelical source research continues and this piece gives indication of pottery with a possible link to Israelites in the time period.

                              though the issue is by no means even remotely settled this again illustrates the failure of the absence of evidence equals evidence of absence argument. The BAR article is recent but the true ignorance on your part was actually the claim that the matter was settled, done and finished and was open to no more debate. Its a stupid thing to say of archaeology and history where as in this case the mere reexamination of an old dig or even a single new find can lend new light and even reverse old ideas of ANY historical event.

                              as to the 13th century and go with mike? I actually favor the 1450ish date but then if thats the case then we are heading into some things that Rohl points to which you thoroughly dismissed until you found out Kadesh wasn't quite the slam dunk closed debate you thought it was. Then all of a sudden you were linking to evangelical conservative sites to support you who you previously said were not to be trusted on anything due to their bias.
                              Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-11-2015, 10:19 PM.

                              Comment


                              • and for the record lest I hear some nonsense mischaracterization from you later on - I make nor made no claims that the piece claims to vindicate the exodus. Its a pretty understated article that makes no bold claims in part because the issue is not settled . The nature of ongoing work means we could find out this is wrong, in dispute or we could even potentially find even older dates are workable at Kadesh. What it does illustrate is dogmatic statements about there being no evidence and the issue being settled and "DONE" is nonsense.

                                Everyone have a great week.
                                Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-11-2015, 10:24 PM.

                                Comment

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