Originally posted by Mikeenders
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Originally posted by GaryOne of the key pieces of evidence for me in my deconversion from Christianity was the discovery that there is zero evidence for the Hebrew Slavery in Egypt, the Exodus, or the Forty Years of Wandering in the Sinai. None. Nor is there any evidence of the great Egyptian defeat at the hands of their fleeing slaves. None.
Christians will often argue that the Egyptians did not erect monuments to their defeats, and that this is why there is no mention in Egypt of this Egyptian disaster. This may be true, but what about the surrounding nations? Egypt was the most powerful nation on earth at that time. Are we really to believe that the God of the Hebrews drowned the entire Egyptian army in a sea while in hot pursuit of their runaway slaves...and no one in the ancient world thought it was of enough significance to record it??
At this point, Christians will sometimes say: "Well, it wasn't the entire Egyptian army. It was just his charioteers" or "It was just one of many Egyptians armies, so it wasn't that news worthy". Let's see what the Bible says:
Then the Lord said to Moses: 2 Tell the Israelites to turn back and camp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall camp opposite it, by the sea. 3 Pharaoh will say of the Israelites, “They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has closed in on them.” 4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, the minds of Pharaoh and his officials were changed toward the people, and they said, “What have we done, letting Israel leave our service?”
6 So he had his chariot made ready, and took his army with him; 7 he took six hundred picked chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt with officers over all of them. 8 The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt and he pursued the Israelites, who were going out boldly. 9 The Egyptians pursued them, all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, his chariot drivers and his army; they overtook them camped by the sea, by Pi-hahiroth, in front of Baal-zephon.
... Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, so that the water may come back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots and chariot drivers.”
27 So Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and at dawn the sea returned to its normal depth. As the Egyptians fled before it, the Lord tossed the Egyptians into the sea. 28 The waters returned and covered the chariots and the chariot drivers, the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea; not one of them remained. 29 But the Israelites walked on dry ground through the sea, the waters forming a wall for them on their right and on their left.
Gary; So unless you are Bill Clinton, "all" and "entire" mean exactly what the dictionary says they mean: all Pharaoh's army; the entire Egyptian army; was drowned in the sea. Christians can try to wiggle out of this dilemma by pulling a "Bill Clinton", claiming that words don't really mean what we all know they mean, but the facts are clear: The Holy Bible claims that the entire mighty Egyptian army drowned in the sea chasing after their runaway slaves...
...but no one in the entire world bothered to document the greatest Egyptian defeat in history!
Conclusion: The absence of evidence does not prove the evidence of absence. But, the absence of evidence for a couple million people allegedly exiting Egypt in one great exodus to wander around the small geographical area of the Sinai for forty years...but not leave one shred of archeological evidence, nor any mention of their shocking, miraculous defeat of the mighty Egyptian Pharaoh and his entire army in the annals of any nation on earth, is strong evidence that this story is nothing more than a nationalistic, ancient Hebrew fable.
Having dealt with the matters raised concerning the army of Pharaoh by Gary in his private message, I'll forego the balance of that private message's rant about Gary's opinion (based on some very strange applications of the meaning of "study") of how false Christianity is.
With all that said though, I would not be surprised to find that the number of Israelites who fled Egypt has been overstated. Archaeological findings from the areas around Israel pre-kingom don't tend to support the idea that millions of people suddenly entered the region. A few hundred thousand, perhaps even several hundred thousand, but not millions.Last edited by tabibito; 10-01-2015, 09:47 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by GaryHi Tabby,
You could be right. When the passage talks about "all" Pharaoh's army and "Pharaoh's entire army" it could mean what you say: it was only part of the army that chased after the Hebrews, and only part of the army of foot soldiers that followed the chariots drowned.However, I think one has to really stretch the reading of the text to get to that interpretation. I believe that if one sits down and reads the entire Book of Exodus, one will walk away with the impression that the entire nation of Egypt and her entire army were brought down to utter defeat and destruction by the God of the Hebrews.
I think that is the entire point of the whole story: Obey and place your complete trust in Yahweh and Yahweh will bring even the most mighty and powerful of your enemies to his knees in utter desolation.
Why would Pharaoh stop his pursuit of the Hebrews if all he lost were just a division of charioteers? I think an unbiased reading of the text clearly indicates that God (or at least the author of the Exodus story) wanted to completely desolate the mighty Egyptians. Just drowning a few charioteers and a few squadrons of foot soldiers who followed them seems very anti-climatic.
But, yes, you could be right.
In regards to Pharaoh summoning his entire army from all over the country, think about this: Who would move at a faster pace to reach the Red Sea (or Reed Sea): Soldiers in chariots or even soldiers on foot, or, a mass of people with old people, young children, their sick, livestock, tents, cooking utensils, and other supplies with a large percentage of them most likely walking on foot.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by psstein View PostCan we possibly open another thread on this, or some debate topic? I think this thread has long gone off topic, and the subject of the Exodus is best discussed in another thread.
As a thread that for weeks has been more about how to deal with skeptic claims against the Bible the issue of exodus is a pretty big related issue (favorite of online skeptics as well) one so though yeah at getting to 400 pages its probably time to wind down its not really off topic to what the thread became looooooong ago.
So at bare minimum can you at least answer me as to what you think of the BAR article. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but they seem to be suggesting Kadesh might actually have some evidence.Last edited by Mikeenders; 10-02-2015, 11:09 AM.
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Incidentally if the mods haven't they might check Gary for spamming PM. He seems to be sending out PMs to people to get around not getting his stuff posted. I am not even remotely interested . If you can go 300 pages in a forum and offer mostly copy and paste nonsense in that time its not likely to improve in PM.
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Originally posted by Mikeenders View PostIncidentally if the mods haven't they might check Gary for spamming PM. He seems to be sending out PMs to people to get around not getting his stuff posted. I am not even remotely interested . If you can go 300 pages in a forum and offer mostly copy and paste nonsense in that time its not likely to improve in PM.
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Originally posted by GaryYes, it is possible that "all" may not mean "all". "Entire army" may not mean "entire army".
"Six hundred thousand" Hebrew fighting men may not mean "six hundred thousand men".
If it is ok to reinterpret the above words, and change the understand of the text as orthodox Jews and Christians have understood it to mean for thousands of years,
then why must one believe that "resurrected" means a bodily resurrection and not some form of spiritual resurrection or even a spiritual awakening among the followers of the dead Jesus??
Orthodox Jews have believed for several thousand years that the Bible says that two to three million Hebrews left a devastated Egypt.
On what authority are you reinterpreting these ancient Jewish passages?And if you can reinterpret these ancient writings, contrary to what Jews have believed for thousands of years, why is it wrong for others to reinterpret the meaning of the words "resurrection" and "appeared to" and "have seen"?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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I'm vetting Gary's posts and forwarding only those parts that would seem reasonable for inclusion if they were posted by someone else. If that isn't suitable, let me know.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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I can't say he is breaking any rule especially since I just delete them because he has had nothing substantial to say. Seeing Tab was getting what upon my glance was the same message too I figured since he has an almost religious fervor of his great mission he might attempt to use PMs to spam people as well. Just a thought consistent with his behaviour have no way of knowing.
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Originally posted by Mikeenders View PostThing is its been off the original topic for at least 300 pages and has been more or less a thread charging the Bible and Christianity with all kinds of things. IF you thought that it was off topic then why make several pronouncements of near fact and only invoke it being off topic when someone asks you to back your claims? Not to, as the American phrase (I think) goes, bust your chops but in a thread where a skeptic is claiming the Bible is made up for a Christian to waltz in and claim as fact the things you did of Kings, Chronicles , Exodus, Joshua and Daniel and kind of duck for like a week or two giving any hard facts to back up the claims reeks of irresponsibility. Worse still no answer to the BAR article I referred you to or to the other data Nick has referred you to.
As a thread that for weeks has been more about how to deal with skeptic claims against the Bible the issue of exodus is a pretty big related issue (favorite of online skeptics as well) one so though yeah at getting to 400 pages its probably time to wind down its not really off topic to what the thread became looooooong ago.
So at bare minimum can you at least answer me as to what you think of the BAR article. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but they seem to be suggesting Kadesh might actually have some evidence.
Discussing Kings/Chronicles/Daniel/Exodus/Joshua is not just a book, but a series of books. Daniel doesn't appear in the canon until the 2nd century BC. I'd really rather focus on Exodus and Joshua, for this part. About the BAR article, I want to read the full article, not just a synopsis, before I present my view. We know the Egyptians had controlled that area for a long time, so it could just be an Egyptian settlement. On the other hand, I think the New Kingdom was in decline by that point, so it's tough to tell...
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I'll be gone all weekend so, someone else will have to approve Gary's posts if they want to.
"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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