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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Does Stein rely on stuff from this bloke? Surely not.

    https://youtu.be/8vHganYiOQM

    At this point I don't know what Stein follows. I think its pretty obvious its not recent research and debate issues. when I entered into conversations with him it was because I assumed he was conversant on the issues but when he flat out denied that dating was a key issue in the exodus debate he lost huge credibility points as he would with ANYONE who even has a passing knowledge of that issue. To use his earlier phrase to me - thats either ignorance or dishonesty - only in this case the shoe actually would fit.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by archaeopteryx View Post
      Most reputable biblical scholars, including the publishers of The New American Bible, accept that the Torah was written by at least four different sources, over a period of 400 years:
      bolded part is called "trying to stack the deck"

      Sometimes people try to be subtle with the no true scotsman fallacy sometimes others can see right through it.

      Last time I checked the New American Bible was not the final word on anything
      Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-29-2015, 11:10 AM.

      Comment


      • [RANT]I consider the New King James to be the best of the mass market Bibles available, particularly for study purposes - but even that proves deficient at times. The King James was considered so unreliable by members of its own translation team that they continued to use the earlier common use translation. Dynamic equivalent translations aren't worth consideration for the most part. All up, it's pretty much a futile effort trying to establish facts concerning the actual records by using translations.[/RANT]

        Last time I looked at Netflix, half its content (or more) wasn't available to Australia. I'll look again.
        Last edited by tabibito; 09-29-2015, 11:14 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          In the ordinary - drop a body in a hole and cover it with a bit of dirt kind of graves - course, there isn't much chance of any body parts being left after even a couple of hundred years, including skeletons - except in ph neutral soils. The people were leading a nomadic existence, the kind of burials that would leave traces weren't likely.
          Three million people wander in circles around an area approximately the size of West Virginia for forty years, all but two of them die there, sometimes in great slaughters (such as the Golden Calf massacre)...and not one artifact or skeleton is left behind...

          And you think that is perfectly normal??

          Give me a break, Tabby.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Last time I looked at Netflix, half its content (or more) wasn't available to Australia. I'll look again.
            Ah bummer. If you are into such things its a video worth watching (with I think the almost inescapable issue that all DVDs covering scholarship have - not going to be exhaustive - HAS to consider entertainment value ).

            Amazon instant video has it for like $3.99 from state side as well. Don't know if that has issues for you guys down under as well
            Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-29-2015, 11:26 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              The Bible does not record that all of Pharaoh's army was destroyed - so ... why would other histories record it?
              If the drowning of Pharaoh's army occurred it would have been a massive defeat for the greatest power on earth. And not at the hands of a foreign army, but at the hands of their run away slaves. But none of the surrounding countries bother to record this great Egyptian defeat and humiliation??

              It didn't happen, Tabby. That is why no one recorded it.

              Add all the evidence together:

              ---no archeological evidence of a mass Hebrew slave population in Egypt.
              ---no archeological evidence of millions of Hebrews wandering and dying in the Sinai.
              ---no record of the humiliating defeat of Pharaoh's army in the writings of any people or nation which existed in the Near East at the time.

              The absence of evidence STRONGLY suggest the non-historicity of the alleged event.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                At this point I don't know what Stein follows. I think its pretty obvious its not recent research and debate issues. when I entered into conversations with him it was because I assumed he was conversant on the issues but when he flat out denied that dating was a key issue in the exodus debate he lost huge credibility points as he would with ANYONE who even has a passing knowledge of that issue. To use his earlier phrase to me - thats either ignorance or dishonesty - only in this case the shoe actually would fit.
                Mike,

                You have stated that you do not believe that I ever was a true Christian. In your flavor of Christianity, what are the requirements of being a true Christian? Do you believe that a Roman Catholic who believes and adheres to the core teachings of the RCC, can be a true Christian?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  The Bible does not record that all of Pharaoh's army was destroyed - so ... why would other histories record it?
                  Further, official historical accounts tend to be markedly reticent regarding adverse results.

                  ETA: And we've lost more than a little knowledge to the vagaries of time. Quick, cite the extant histories of the "countries" surrounding Egypt at the time.
                  Last edited by One Bad Pig; 09-29-2015, 12:12 PM.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                  Comment


                  • There's also the question of if it was 3 million. The word I understand for thousand could also be translated as chiefs.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Further, official historical accounts tend to be markedly reticent regarding adverse results.
                      yes this is yet another mark against the silliness of Gary. We are supposed to believe that the nations of the world were observing the events to report on them

                      We have the Jews and Egyptians as witness

                      Egyptians are known not to record such defeats and if a Jew says they saw it then it doesn't count to the Gary's of the world

                      Meanwhile we can see the duplicity of Gary yet again. When talking about the Date of the crucifixion Gary claims that times were different than the times of the eruption of Thera. Now he goes back to within the time Thera might well have exploded and Gary claims we'd have records of the details of the exodus while we clearly do not have enough of Thera's eruption to date it accurately.

                      apparently the nations of the world were too busy looking across the red sea to notice and record tsunamis, earthquakes and all kinds of other notable effects this tremendous explosion had on them. At least not sufficiently so we would be able to easily date it. Who knew?

                      Comment


                      • Yes. It would be ludicrous to imagine the Egyptians recording this. What is Pharaoh going to say?

                        Dear Journal. Today, those Hebrews I'd been keeping for slaves for centuries finally escaped. All of these miracles kept taking place here and our gods were powerless to stop them and when I chased them through the Red Sea, the sea parted for them to get through and closed in on my own army. Let's hope no one finds out about this.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          There's also the question of if it was 3 million. The word I understand for thousand could also be translated as chiefs.
                          Biblical revisionism.

                          Even if there were only 600,000 people walking circles in the Sinai for forty years, we should find at least SOME artifacts and skeletons. The fact is, none have been found.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            Yes. It would be ludicrous to imagine the Egyptians recording this. What is Pharaoh going to say?

                            Dear Journal. Today, those Hebrews I'd been keeping for slaves for centuries finally escaped. All of these miracles kept taking place here and our gods were powerless to stop them and when I chased them through the Red Sea, the sea parted for them to get through and closed in on my own army. Let's hope no one finds out about this.
                            I have never included EGYPTIAN records of the Exodus in this discussion as I know that Christians are absolutely certain that Egyptians would never record such a defeat. Let's assume that is true. It doesn't explain why the Hittites, the Babylonians, the Canaanites, the Greeks, or the Libyans say nothing of this massive Egyptian defeat at the hands of their runaway slaves.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Further, official historical accounts tend to be markedly reticent regarding adverse results.

                              ETA: And we've lost more than a little knowledge to the vagaries of time. Quick, cite the extant histories of the "countries" surrounding Egypt at the time.
                              Is It Realistic To Expect That Archaeologists Could Find 3,500 Year Old Artifacts?

                              Modern archaeological techniques are no longer limited to trowels and brushes. Satellite imagery and ground-penetrating radar are just some of the sophisticated equipment utilized enabling archaeologists to trace even the most meager remains of hunter-gathers and pastoral nomads all over the world. Indeed, the archaeological records from the Sinai peninsula discloses evidence for pastoral activity in the 13 century BCE era and the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods.

                              In the case of Israel, the search is not for a "needle in a haystack". The bible documents the locations. The years of archaeological searching only affirms that (especially Christian)archaeologists anticipate being able to find artifacts from 2,000,000 Israelites. Yet, repeated surveys at Kadesh-Barnea where Israel spent 38 of its 40 years have not provided the slightest evidence of an Israelite encampment. Ezion-geber, a camping place of Israel has not produced a trace of evidence. Twenty years of intensive excavations at Tel Arad (Num 21:1-3) where Israel allegedly did battle with King Arad has provided no Late Bronze Age remains. Tel Hesbon, the site of Hesbon (Num21:21-35) where Israel allegedly did battle with the king of the Amorites provides no Bronze Age remains.

                              In light of modern day archaeological capabilities, the Exodus story has to be highly suspect when after so many years of repeated archaeological surveys using the latest scientifically advanced equipment and techniques in all regions of the peninsula including the mountainous area around Mt. Sinai, provides not a single archaeological artifact, not a single sherd, or not a trace of a campsite from the alleged 2,000,000 Israelites wandering 40 years in the desert

                              Source: http://articles.exchristian.net/2002...t-actually.php
                              Last edited by One Bad Pig; 09-29-2015, 04:00 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                If the drowning of Pharaoh's army occurred it would have been a massive defeat for the greatest power on earth. And not at the hands of a foreign army, but at the hands of their run away slaves. But none of the surrounding countries bother to record this great Egyptian defeat and humiliation??

                                It didn't happen, Tabby. That is why no one recorded it.

                                Add all the evidence together:

                                ---no archeological evidence of a mass Hebrew slave population in Egypt.
                                Wrong. There was a subjugated people, called the hyksos, who during the Second Intermediate Period had held strong positions in Egypt. Egyptian records show that they were expelled in 1539 BC, but not that they were expelled from the country. These people (at least a proportion of them) were thereafter a subjugated race. True enough, they were not slaves in the technical sense.
                                ---no archeological evidence of millions of Hebrews wandering and dying in the Sinai.
                                Nomadic peoples do not generally leave lasting traces of their presence. Not that there have been extensive searches of the Sinai for such remains - in part because no remains can be reasonably expected to exist.
                                ---no record of the humiliating defeat of Pharaoh's army in the writings of any people or nation which existed in the Near East at the time.
                                Egypt had a habit of expunging records that became embarrassing, and not recording events that were embarrassing. - Record of the pharaohs Akhenaten, Neferneferuaten, Smenkhkare, were lost to history until the 19th century. They didn't appear on any lists of the kings. and the location of Tutankhamun's tomb was not recorded.
                                The Bible does not record that the entire Egyptian army was lost at the Red Sea - it records that the entire pursuing army was lost.
                                Relying on memory of the Biblical texts without double checking, that was about 600 chariots and others. By no means a significant proportion of the entire army.

                                The absence of evidence STRONGLY suggest the non-historicity of the alleged event.
                                As more evidence comes to light, this absence of evidence that you are so fond of shrinks.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 09-29-2015, 01:05 PM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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