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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    Below is a video of a Christian giving justifications for Yahweh ordering the dismemberment of the little bodies of Amalekite infants and young children by his "chosen" people. Dear readers: Substitute a couple of words in this video and see if you continue to agree that in some situations it is moral and good to dismember the bodies of infants and children with a spear or axe.
    ...
    Classic Gary: Ignore scholarly treatment in favor of some random Christian on the internets, then offer a viewpoint he agrees with and call it "rational."

    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Gary can't envisage anything that would justify genocide: wiping a people out, root and branch. No more can I. Killing - even punishing - infants and children - and even adults - for the sins of their parents is a matter the scriptures declare God himself to state to be an affront.

      God commanded an action that he himself considers an evil? Not a tenable concept. The children were not killed because of the sins of their parents.
      The infants and children were put to death in a means of sparing them an otherwise inevitable slow and tortured death? A rationalisation that flies in the face of the archaeological record.

      But the rationalisation does outline a matter that Gary fails to consider: God understands the future.


      1/ The possibility cannot be discounted that the impact of any alternative course on the future may have resulted in disastrous outcomes that outweighed the immediate (apparent) atrocity.
      2/ God will give a command to "do" and when to do it, without any explanation of why. That is a matter confirmed by both scripture and personal experience.
      3/ Aside from an alternative course having an extremely negative impact on the future, I can't think of anything that would justify genocide. That doesn't preclude other possibilities that I am not competent to evaluate.

      Atheists are (in the main) extremely adept at noticing rationalisations, far more adept than are Christians (in the main).
      Where a lame rationalisation may serve to satisfy a Christian, an atheist will cry foul at first sight.
      It isn't that Christians are more gullible than atheists, it is just that atheists are far more practiced at producing rationalisations.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Gary can't envisage anything that would justify genocide: wiping a people out, root and branch. No more can I. Killing - even punishing - infants and children - and even adults - for the sins of their parents is a matter the scriptures declare God himself to state to be an affront.

        God commanded an action that he himself considers an evil? Not a tenable concept. The children were not killed because of the sins of their parents.
        The infants and children were put to death in a means of sparing them an otherwise inevitable slow and tortured death? A rationalisation that flies in the face of the archaeological record.

        But the rationalisation does outline a matter that Gary fails to consider: God understands the future.


        1/ The possibility cannot be discounted that the impact of any alternative course on the future may have resulted in disastrous outcomes that outweighed the immediate (apparent) atrocity.
        2/ God will give a command to "do" and when to do it, without any explanation of why. That is a matter confirmed by both scripture and personal experience.
        3/ Aside from an alternative course having an extremely negative impact on the future, I can't think of anything that would justify genocide. That doesn't preclude other possibilities that I am not competent to evaluate.

        Atheists are (in the main) extremely adept at noticing rationalisations, far more adept than are Christians (in the main).
        Where a lame rationalisation may serve to satisfy a Christian, an atheist will cry foul at first sight.
        It isn't that Christians are more gullible than atheists, it is just that atheists are far more practiced at producing rationalisations.
        There is NEVER any justification for chasing down a terrified, screaming, child; running his little belly through with your sword; or chopping off his little arms and legs with your ax. There is NEVER any justification for running your sword through the belly of a defenseless mother who is attempting to shield her baby from you; to then pick up her child and chop off its head---the last thing the mother sees before bleeding to death. There is NEVER any justification for chasing down terrified old men and old women, repeatedly stabbing them as they hold up their frail arms and hands in defense, finally slitting their throats with your dagger.

        There is NO justification today for this behavior nor is there ANY justification for this behavior in the past or future. Any belief system that justifies the chasing down of helpless, defenseless infants, mothers, children, and old people is evil and the epitome of immorality...by the standards of every civilized people on planet earth.

        Stop making excuses for the immorality and barbarism of your belief system! It is evil. Pure evil.
        Last edited by Gary; 09-04-2015, 11:15 PM.

        Comment


        • There is NO justification today for this behavior nor is there ANY justification for this behavior in the past or future. Any belief system that justifies the chasing down of helpless, defenseless infants, mothers, children, and old people is evil and the epitome of immorality...by the standards of every civilized people on planet earth.
          You have an overblown sense of your ability to know all relevant details, sight unseen. If you had even the slightest appreciation of human limitations, you would be aware of just how ludicrous your diatribe is.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            You have an overblown sense of your ability to know all relevant details, sight unseen. If you had even the slightest appreciation of human limitations, you would be aware of just how ludicrous your diatribe is.
            If you cannot categorically condemn, under all circumstances and in all ages, the chasing down and killing of little children, you are immoral.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              If you cannot categorically condemn, under all circumstances and in all ages, the chasing down and killing of little children, you are immoral.
              I take it you're staunchly anti-abortion then?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                If you cannot categorically condemn, under all circumstances and in all ages, the chasing down and killing of little children, you are immoral.
                Thankyou. Your pushing has brought to light a scenario which would justify such an action. I'll leave you to determine what that might be - it did, after all, arise from your own arguments - if indirectly. Whether - if I was forced to be involved in such an action - I could live with it afterwards, I couldn't say. But that's me - with late 20th century concepts of morality in play. I'm kind of too old to be able to stomach some of what passes for 21st century morality.

                But let's run a small exercise - just to see if you are capable of exercising logic and imagination:

                Can you think of anything that would justify a man chase down and pick up a 2 year old, then hurl him 10 feet through the air to land in a heap on the ground?
                Last edited by tabibito; 09-04-2015, 11:50 PM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  If you cannot categorically condemn, under all circumstances and in all ages, the chasing down and killing of little children, you are immoral.
                  If I had a shot at Hitler when he was five and knew the future I'd laugh at your morality and consider taking the shot.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                    If I had a shot at Hitler when he was five and knew the future I'd laugh at your morality and consider taking the shot.
                    Given the outcomes of WWII, even taking the negatives into account, I couldn't be sure that I would.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • So Gary is declaring things evil, but also calling himself a naturalist... the contradiction is comical.

                      Comment


                      • I agree with OBP. Avoid looking at Christian scholarship like Copan and Flannagan. Instead, go with a random Christian on YouTube as representative.

                        Then put up Sam Harris's reply as "rational."

                        I've read Harris. He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

                        Oh. One more thing.

                        DRINK!

                        Comment


                        • I guess moral dilemmas don't exist in fundy atheist land. God should have just taken the children to heaven instead of having them die. Wait, if the little kids die, they do go to heaven, which is a better place than ancient times were to grow up in. The reason a mother shouldn't murder her baby is that the kid could have grown up to be a great christian. Murdering her baby would just ensure that she and the baby don't get any rewards in heaven. And denying the child the right to make their own choice.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            I take it you're staunchly anti-abortion then?
                            Yes, I am.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                              If I had a shot at Hitler when he was five and knew the future I'd laugh at your morality and consider taking the shot.
                              Murdering children is NEVER justifiable.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Given the outcomes of WWII, even taking the negatives into account, I couldn't be sure that I would.
                                Oh I am not sure i would take the shot either but i would not be sure if I decided not to that it was the right moral choice as Gary seems to think it always is. An interesting next step is to ask the question - why would few people hesitate to take the shot a few decades later? Same person. the only real answer is the temporal perspective - thing is God does not live in time so his view of Hitler as a baby and in the 1940s is unchanged.

                                Comment

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