That still doesn't account for the survival and growth of Christianity during the first few centuries of it's existence.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostThat still doesn't account for the survival and growth of Christianity during the first few centuries of it's existence.
For the same reasons it happened to Christianity.
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Originally posted by Sea of red View PostThen explain how Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Scientology and company have gotten so big. How did it happen?
For the same reasons it happened to Christianity.
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Originally posted by Dave View PostIn the link you gave there are two related references from ancient writings: "Cicero, for example, mentions a governor in Sicily who released bodies to family members in return for a fee (In Verrem 2.5.45), and Philo writes that on the eve of Roman holidays in Egypt, crucified bodies were taken down and given to their families, "because it was thought well to give them burial and allow them ordinary rites" (In Flaccum 10.83-84)." These appear to be special circumstances (a Roman holiday and extortion) that would allow an exception, but otherwise the rule may have been to not release the body of crucified criminals (especially someone guilty of treason). Since there are no quotes that mention Pilate's custom regarding crucified bodies we can only speculate.
"And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered"
And, as you no doubt read, there's also the case of the crucified skeletal remains found in a family tomb. So there's good evidence of a tradition of Jews requesting the bodies of the crucified, and this being granted by the Roman state.
It seems unlikely that the gospel would have been distributed to opponents (if they were even still alive).
It wouldn't have to have been actual copies of the gospel, but of the oral tradition in the early Jewish-Christian community that mentioned a lone member of the Sanhedrin making this request (perhaps with Nicodemus' help).
I guess I have a hard time believing that so much dialogue could be retained in oral traditions for all those years. Not to mention that many times the dialogue is done in private.
If it helps, the exact words would not have to be recorded in order to retain the general sense of the dialogue in oral traditions. Furthermore, Tim McGrew recently mentioned in his debate with Bart Ehrman on Unbelievable that most of the "private dialogues" were probably not as private as we sometimes imagine.Last edited by Adrift; 07-31-2015, 10:38 AM.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostZombies??? NO! A glorified resurrection body is nothing like the undead. The undead still aren't alive. They would eventually break down.
I'm not saying Jesus was a zombie, but was dead, then not dead, while still having his wounds...
but either way, it still seems more like science fiction than science.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOther than Islam, none of your list is "big" - not even a drop in the bucket. And as I said previously Islam uses force to convert and keep their adherents in check. And none of them is based on historical evidence or claims except Christianity.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIslam grows by forced conversion, not personal choice based on evidence. Once a muslim government is in place everyone is pressured to become muslim or face dire consequences. It has been that way from the beginning, when Mohammad raided caravans and made them convert at the point of a sword. So you really can't compare Christianity to Islam. Christianity is a personal choice, and it makes historical claims based on actual events. If the evidence were not convincing, there would be no Christianity.
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What you said is true in one snippet of reality, but ignores other facts. It's like claiming Christianity never spread by force or threat. in truth, they have more in common than what you're trying to peddle.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMohammad merely claimed he was visited by an angel and given the Koran to write down. The Koran, if you have ever read it, is basically like the book of proverbs, full of sayings and advice but not really making a cohesive narrative based on historical events.
check it out yourself: http://www.wright-house.com/religions/islam/Quran.html
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Originally posted by Sea of red View PostScientology is just getting started and it's got a big following for only forty years old.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostScientology membership is actually in a rapid state of decline. The recent HBO documentary Going Clear mentions this, and, if I recall correctly, the current number of active Scientologists worldwide is somewhere in the tens of thousands rather than the millions the church claims. Membership decline is such a big deal that the leaders of the church have been investing in real estate to counter the loss of cash flow.
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Originally posted by Dave View PostYes, this is true. We don't know now and back then it is at least a possibility they did not know. The other possibility is that they knew, but lost the location at some point (perhaps the siege of Jerusalem affected grave sites).
In the link you gave there are two related references from ancient writings: "Cicero, for example, mentions a governor in Sicily who released bodies to family members in return for a fee (In Verrem 2.5.45), and Philo writes that on the eve of Roman holidays in Egypt, crucified bodies were taken down and given to their families, "because it was thought well to give them burial and allow them ordinary rites" (In Flaccum 10.83-84)." These appear to be special circumstances (a Roman holiday and extortion) that would allow an exception, but otherwise the rule may have been to not release the body of crucified criminals (especially someone guilty of treason). Since there are no quotes that mention Pilate's custom regarding crucified bodies we can only speculate.
It seems unlikely that the gospel would have been distributed to opponents (if they were even still alive).
I read this entire page. It is very interesting. I am going to have to revise my hypothesis because I do need to somehow explain why Mark gives Jesus a shameful burial with no mourners. Of course, the burial by Joseph story could just be true, but then we still have to wonder why there were no mourners.
What if Mark was trying to paint a very bleak picture to gain an emotional response from his readers? The crucifixion was horrifying, the burial was shameful and all hope was lost. Then miraculously everything goes from black to white which makes for a great story. The tomb is empty, an angel is there proclaiming the resurrection, Jesus appears to the disciples and then is taken up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God.
I guess I have a hard time believing that so much dialogue could be retained in oral traditions for all those years. Not to mention that many times the dialogue is done in private.
Good point, that is plausible.
I guess because the reason to visit the tomb was to anoint the body. Perhaps this kind of chore was left for women. (Sorry ladies) Besides, in Mark's gospel the women don't get to see Jesus, just the angel in the tomb saying he was risen. The honor of the first appearance then is still given to the disciples.
But still, the women could have been avoided easily, or even just replaced, but they weren't.
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Originally posted by Sea of red View PostSeriously? Scientology is just getting started and it's got a big following for only forty years old. But even still, is this seriously your argument? Most Christians today have no clue about Christianities origins or the arguments for and against it, so this idea is pretty dead in the water. All we really have for Christianities early days is two passages from historians that confirm Jesus had some sort of ministry and nothing else outside of that. We have no idea how the Romans and Jews really responded to claims of Jesus being the messiah, or the idea of him being resurrected.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostI think we should differ between beliefs deemed odd and those deemed shameful. Every belief system has some oddities to those outside of it after all. Scientology however doesn't really work here. It did grow up in a modern individualistic American culture with a live and let live attitude. Christianity didn't have that. If a people started to suffer, it would be blamed on the deviants for ruining the group and who were the deviants? Those darn Christians who refused to satisfy the gods.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOther than Islam, none of your list is "big" - not even a drop in the bucket. And as I said previously Islam uses force to convert and keep their adherents in check. And none of them is based on historical evidence or claims except Christianity.
Regardless of size, these religions did persist despite opposition. And Islam does not only get converts by threat or force, while Christianity had it's share of converts by force and threat too.
and then there's even peer pressure. Everyone in my town is of one particular faith that they feel must be adhered to and that they feel opponents of are broken, so I may be convince dto see it their way when that's most of what I'm exposed to and when i mostly hear the "good" about it.
Converts and believers are not good evidence for the truth of what they believe in.
and then we could mention Peer pressure
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