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Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

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  • Originally posted by Dave View Post
    If Jesus was buried in a common grave like other crucified criminals by the Romans then the fact that no one knows for sure where he was buried makes sense.
    But this still assumes your premise. It assumes no one knew where Jesus was buried. Just because we are unsure does not mean that they did not know. Also, the custom in Judea was burial.

    And it could be said that the story in Mark of Joseph requesting the body from Pilate seems a bit contrived and convenient that he owned a nearby tomb that had never been used.
    No. It's not. Joseph was a member of the Sanhedrin which would meet in Jerusalem and thus would most likely have a residency near Jerusalem. Furthermore, all the Gospels refer to Him and it would be difficult to make up a figure like Joseph when opponents could call them out on it.

    If Jesus was crucified for claiming to be a king of the Jews then it would make more sense to make an example of him and deny him a proper burial (since burial was so important back then). Why would Joseph of Arimathea stick his neck out and request the body as if to say that the criminal deserved a proper burial? Weren't all the other disciples afraid and hiding?
    Joseph would because as Byron McCane points out.

    and literature, along with theory from anthropology and sociology, to argue that Jesus was indeed buried in disgrace in a criminals' tomb. Based on what we know of Roman practice and Jewish custom, one or more members of the Sanhedrin must have obtained the body of Jesus from Pilate and arranged for a dishonorable interment. From an early date the Christian tradition tried to conceal this unpleasant fact, but the best evidence clearly shows that Jesus was buried in shame.
    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sl...yronburial.htm

    After all, if Joseph was hiding his position, he would have not come forward at all. No one thought suspiciously of Joseph because he came forward. He took a dishonorable burial and tried to bandage it.

    Then we come to the women visiting the tomb and their strange question. (Side note: there is so much dialog contained in the gospels that it really seems (to me anyway) to be fictional content blended with traditional accounts/stories.) "Who will move the stone for us?"
    Why would dialogue make the story fictional? In fact, in a real account, this is what I would expect.

    I find this strange because they knew the stone would be an issue, but they went anyway.
    I can only suspect at this point that you have not talked to people in states of desperation. This is extremely common. These women had a man they deeply cared for and treasured and were just hoping against hope.

    The only explanation that comes to mind is that the author knew all along that the stone would be moved away and he uses the women performing burial chores as a means of discovering it.
    And why on Earth would he do that? That would only make the account less believable. An author making a fictional account would more likely include the men going and being the heroes. Especially if Mark is the testimony of Peter, why would Peter not be the hero?

    I only have about an hour each day to spare so my replies will be short.
    Sure. Take your time.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      Nope. It's because you called Him a jerk. And aren't completely perfect. You wouldn't want to spend eternity in His presence anyways, so why would it be so bad for you to be separated from Him?
      Judging by the way you describe your God, it wouldn't.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
        Nick, exactly what do you think is the single most convincing piece of evidence for the resurrection if you had to pick one?
        It's hard for me to pick just one. I know Habermas places a lot on the appearances in "To Everyone An Answer" and frankly, he and Mike avoid the honor-shame motif which I think is a mistake and I said so in my critique of Mike's book. I really think that the whole of the honor-shame motif is what I find the most convincing. I don't think I could point to any one aspect.

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        • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          It's hard for me to pick just one. I know Habermas places a lot on the appearances in "To Everyone An Answer" and frankly, he and Mike avoid the honor-shame motif which I think is a mistake and I said so in my critique of Mike's book. I really think that the whole of the honor-shame motif is what I find the most convincing. I don't think I could point to any one aspect.
          I'm not sure if I'm familiar with that argument, can you summarize it?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
            I'm not sure if I'm familiar with that argument, can you summarize it?
            JPH does it best in The Impossible Faith, but it's the idea that Christianity broke all the social rules of the time and would have been low honor and should have died out, and yet it survived against all odds.

            I find it so fascinating that when I get to the Ph.D. level, I plan to do a Ph.D. thesis on the approach.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              JPH does it best in The Impossible Faith, but it's the idea that Christianity broke all the social rules of the time and would have been low honor and should have died out, and yet it survived against all odds.

              I find it so fascinating that when I get to the Ph.D. level, I plan to do a Ph.D. thesis on the approach.
              So it must be something too in depth for the forums, right?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                So it must be something too in depth for the forums, right?
                Yes...
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                  So it must be something too in depth for the forums, right?
                  Well I said a few of them in my OP, such as shameful aspects of Christianity as a crucified Messiah, a bodily resurrection, being seen as deviant, being a new belief, etc.

                  I would be able to expound further on any point.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    Well I said a few of them in my OP, such as shameful aspects of Christianity as a crucified Messiah, a bodily resurrection, being seen as deviant, being a new belief, etc.

                    I would be able to expound further on any point.
                    Perhaps one day we can have a more in depth discussion on this and other topics?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                      Perhaps one day we can have a more in depth discussion on this and other topics?
                      Absolutely. Believe it or not, I'm trying to spend less time on here. Not going so well right now....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        Absolutely. Believe it or not, I'm trying to spend less time on here. Not going so well right now....
                        tumblr_inline_n8d0uygecj1qacyjg.gif

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                        • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]8401[/ATTACH]
                          Oh I do so like that....

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                          • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            CBW. If Gary's position was based on evidence, he would respond with a counter-argument beyond "I don't like it." The problem is Gary is a fundamentalist who doesn't think about the positions but feels about the positions.

                            For instance, if Islam is true, God is entirely right in punishing me for rejecting the truth and sentencing me with the worst sentence possible. I have no problem saying that.

                            When you meet someone who cannot be wrong in anything, you have to ask why you think they should be right in anything.
                            Nick has called me a "fundamentalist" several times on this thread. The interesting thing about that word is that it has many definitions. The most common definition of the term today is this: a religious person who believes that his belief system is the only true belief system, and that everyone who does not believe as he does, will be punished by his god, either in this world or in the next.

                            So Nick, do you believe that I and other non-Christians will be punished, either physically or psychologically, by your god for the thought crime (sin) of not believing in him as our Lord (master) and Savior (angry-god-appeasing human sacrifice)?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              Nope. It's because you called Him a jerk. And aren't completely perfect. You wouldn't want to spend eternity in His presence anyways, so why would it be so bad for you to be separated from Him?
                              It wouldn't be, as long as he is not punishing me for all eternity for committing a thought crime.

                              Do you really believe that anyone should be punished for all eternity for calling anyone a "jerk"?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                It wouldn't be, as long as he is not punishing me for all eternity for committing a thought crime.

                                Do you really believe that anyone should be punished for all eternity for calling anyone a "jerk"?
                                Who said anything about punishment? You'll get what you want. Which is not the same as what you need.
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                                Comment

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