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  • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
    I'd be curious as to what we you're interesting discussing with myself or anyone else.
    er, did you forget a word?

    Full Form: I would be curious as to what we you are interesting discussing with myself or anyone else.
    "It's evolution; every time you invent something fool-proof, the world invents a better fool."
    -Unknown

    "Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words." - Most likely St.Francis


    I find that evolution is the best proof of God.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I support the :
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    • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
      What a shock! You only debate people you know you can steam-roll with little effort.


      AP: *Gives several legitimate reasons for why he's not able to debate BP at the moment*

      SoR: You're just scared, herp derp!


      You're probably one of those people AP would "steam-roll with little effort".

      Comment


      • Nick,

        Excuse me for my ignorance. I am missing your point.

        All the evidence that you are asking me to believe, except for Paul's vision on the Damascus Road, was available to Saul of Tarsus, and it was NOT convincing to him. How do you explain that?

        Did you read my final comment, posted this afternoon?
        Last edited by Gary; 07-22-2015, 08:53 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
          er, did you forget a word?

          Full Form: I would be curious as to what we you are interesting discussing with myself or anyone else.
          I started to type we and forgot to erase it.

          Had several windows opened...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post


            AP: *Gives several legitimate reasons for why he's not able to debate BP at the moment*

            SoR: You're just scared, herp derp!


            You're probably one of those people AP would "steam-roll with little effort".
            Depends on the topic.

            If it's history he'd crush me, if it's science I'd crush him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by William View Post
              . . .
              I just didn't read anything in the debate that actually lended any credibility to the Resurrection claim. I think Gary was right about one thing, typically any natural explanation is automatically more plausible than a supernatural one, so what is there that is actual evidence for claim?

              I've read through some scholarly works, but not much in the whole scheme of it all, but my understanding is that the majority of scholars actually agree on very little; that they agree that Jesus was likely real, had some type of following and was likely crucified. I suppose you could say that they also agree that many believers, believed they saw Jesus after his death - but that's quite different than scholars actually believing that the witnesses actually saw Jesus.

              I thought Gary had a few good points. The period of Darkness and Christ's death, the dead walking out of their graves at Christ's death and rather huge events, yet no one else thought them noteworthy. No one else thought them significant enough to record. Why didn't a contemporary of Jesus write or record any of this at the time it happened? Why wait several decades like in the case of the gospels - but also why didnt any non-believers right down a long period of darkness at that time or dead people walking around?

              Is there any other evidence or is this basically it?
              What should be some what verifiable historically is by why of the Jewish calendar. I hold the view that those events took place in 30 AD. https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/

              Only in the account ascribed to Matthew mentions other graves opening with that earthquake (Matthew 27:51-53). That those other dead rose at the time of Christ resurrection v.53. As for the darkness it was very unusual, and there is no known record outside the gospel accounts.

              Even the death of Jesus was unusual. When the other two men needed their legs broken. Jesus was aready dead.
              A guard standing by is recorded to have pierced Jesus' side to verify his death.

              Jesus death was on the 15th of Nisan, a high holy day where the Jews could not to do any service work, otherwise very much like the weekly sabbath. So they had to wait to sundown of the 16th of Nisan to obtain Jesus' body for burial. The Sabbath was on the 17th of Nisan, and the first day of the next week was the 18th.

              As for the resurrected Jesus he primarily only appeared to his disciples (Acts 1:3; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8). Saul had witnesses with him when Jesus appeared to Saul. Saul's witnesses did not see Jesus, only the light, heard a voice speak to Saul, but did not hear what was said (Acts 9:1-9; Acts 22:5-11; Acts 26:8-18).

              The resurrection claim has purpose, " And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, . . ." -- Romans 1:4 and ". . . was raised again for our justification." -- Romans 4:25.

              Now there were those who in Corinth who reportedly accepted Christ's resurrection but denied the resurrection of the dead in general v.12, for whom Paul wrote, "For if the dead rise not, then Christ is not raised:" -- 1 Corinthians 15:16, 12-19, 29-30 > Romans 6:3-4.

              So the resurrection claim is essential to Christianity.

              The general resurrection claim has to do with the belief in the future judgement (Daniel 12:1-3; Revelation 20:1-15).

              So really unless one understands how the good news of God's grace is to be obeyed without any merit being required by deeds, belief in the resurrection is without benefit. And that the bodily resurrection of Christ is the the evidence of this promise of grace. (Grace = undeserved favor.)

              For those outside the faith it is merely a claim, for those in the faith the bodily resurrection of Christ is the reality (John 7:17; John 17:3; 1 John 5:1,20; 1 John 5:9-13).

              Originally posted by William View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              One has to be really interested in what is true before one can be in any position to be enabled to comprehend the genuine gospel of grace. And the bodily resurrection of Christ being believed only then is of any use or has any real value and meaning.
              you seem to be implying that if anyone is really interested in the truth, then they will see it your way, which is the only way to comprehend something genuine. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it or perhaps you misspoke, but I'd suggest that mind set seems counter to honest search.
              I think there are people who make an honest search regarding what is true. They honestly do not know that it is Christ. And yet some that do still get it wrong. Now my comment has the following behind it:
              Jesus in a closing remark to Pontius Pilate said, "Every one that is of the truth hears my voice." -- John 18:37 (Compare John 10:26, 27). And that night Jesus was to be betrayed he made the claim to be Truth (John 14:6). And the sole access to God.

              Are we assuming that there must be one God who needs to save us from a Hell He created, or are we simply looking for what's true, whatever it may be?
              Well, consider this, God being omnipresent (Acts 17:28), will be forever present with those whom He so punishes. (Psalm 139:8; Ezekiel 18:32; Revelation 14:10-11.)

              Now the promise of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is that God Himself keeps it and says, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
              Last edited by 37818; 07-22-2015, 11:10 PM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Dear 37818:

                Do you notice how you use the Bible as if everything stated therein, including the month and day of the week of Jesus' death, is assumed as given fact?

                Ask Jewish scholars if there is any corroborating evidence for Jesus being executed on Passover...(or the Day of Preparation, if you are reading John's gospel). They will say, "None whatsoever." I believe this is a false dichotomy that Christians frequently fall for: the Bible is 100% historical fact, or it is all lies and falsehoods.

                Why can't it be some of both?

                Comment


                • Nick hasn't (yet?) responded to my question regarding Saul of Tarsus and his refusal to believe the evidence for the Resurrection prior to his "heavenly vision" on the Damascus road. If the Gospels and Acts accounts are historically correct, Paul was persecuting, and helping to execute, Christians who claimed that they had seen a walking/talking resurrected messiah claimant, KNOWING that no first century Jew would believe this claim unless they had seen the resurrected man with their own two eyes. He would also be aware of the belief that people do not die for a lie; he would also know that Christians were using women witnesses in their story, a highly unusual claim for a fabricated story or legend; Saul would also have had access to the empty tomb, which he would have known was guarded round the clock by professional Roman guards, who would never have let the disciples have had any opportunity to steal the body.

                  Yet Saul did not believe! Saul did not believe until he had a personal appearance (in a "heavenly vision") from Jesus.

                  Why do many of you Christians consider us skeptics close-minded and bigoted in our refusal to believe your evidence, but yet you seem unfazed that Saul of Tarsus rejected the very same evidence, and HE had access to most of the 500+ (alleged) eyewitnesses!!
                  Last edited by Gary; 07-22-2015, 11:42 PM.

                  Comment


                  • "Ask Jewish scholars if there is any corroborating evidence for Jesus being executed on Passover"

                    Gary.....Ummm

                    Have you read the "The Jewish Annotated New Testament" from Amy Levine????

                    She even stated this in an interview...you should especially look at the first statement she says here in her interview that took place in Havurah Volume 15 Number 02

                    "In terms of your phrasing, "the Jewishness of faith in Jesus": the first people who proclaimed Jesus "Lord" in the sense of being part of the Divine were Jews. That proclamation made sense in a first-century Jewish context. By the fifth century, however, it no longer made sense. Churches did not want among its congregants people who identified as Jews, or who held to practices that distinguished Jews from the other nations. Jewish communities did not want among their members people who worshiped Jesus, or understood the Divine to be a Trinity, or who held the books of the New Testament to be sacred.

                    Today, I think the idea of "Jesus as messiah" is less controversial within the Jewish community than the idea of "Jesus as G-d."

                    Even Wikipedia has something on her stating that

                    "there is a consensus of sorts on the basic outline of Jesus' life" in that most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, and over a period of one to three years debated Jewish authorities on the subject of God, gathered followers, and was crucified by Roman prefect Pontius Pilate who officiated 26–36 AD"

                    Source: Amy-Jill Levine; Dale C. Allison Jr.; John Dominic Crossan (16 October 2006). The Historical Jesus in Context. Princeton University Press. p. 4
                    Last edited by Cornell; 07-22-2015, 11:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cornell View Post
                      "Ask Jewish scholars if there is any corroborating evidence for Jesus being executed on Passover"

                      Gary.....Ummm

                      Have you read the "The Jewish Annotated New Testament" from Amy Levine????

                      She even stated this in an interview...you should especially look at the first statement she says here in her interview that took place in Havurah Volume 15 Number 02

                      "In terms of your phrasing, "the Jewishness of faith in Jesus": the first people who proclaimed Jesus "Lord" in the sense of being part of the Divine were Jews. That proclamation made sense in a first-century Jewish context. By the fifth century, however, it no longer made sense. Churches did not want among its congregants people who identified as Jews, or who held to practices that distinguished Jews from the other nations. Jewish communities did not want among their members people who worshiped Jesus, or understood the Divine to be a Trinity, or who held the books of the New Testament to be sacred.

                      Today, I think the idea of "Jesus as messiah" is less controversial within the Jewish community than the idea of "Jesus as G-d."
                      I did not claim that Jews deny the historicity of Jesus. I also did not claim that Jews deny the messiah claim and the crucifixion of Jesus. What I said is that I highly doubt you will find a significant number of Jewish scholars (other than maybe Lapide) who accept the Crucifixion and Resurrection stories as detailed in the Gospels as historical fact. What proof other than the claims in the Gospels and Acts is there that Jesus was crucified on the Jewish Passover?

                      It's certainly possible, but why accept it as unquestioned fact just based on five anonymous books of the religious sect making the claim?
                      Last edited by Gary; 07-22-2015, 11:49 PM.

                      Comment


                      • You said "executed" on Passover, so are you now changing it to Resurrection stories?

                        Anyways this was also from Amy Levine, found on Wikipedia of all places.

                        "there is a consensus of sorts on the basic outline of Jesus' life" in that most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, and over a period of one to three years debated Jewish authorities on the subject of God, gathered followers, and was crucified by Roman prefect Pontius Pilate who officiated 26–36 AD"

                        Source: Amy-Jill Levine; Dale C. Allison Jr.; John Dominic Crossan (16 October 2006). The Historical Jesus in Context. Princeton
                        University Press. p. 4

                        The point that sticks out here is about crucifixion under Pontius Pilate

                        Comment


                        • "It's certainly possible, but why accept it as unquestioned fact just based on five anonymous books of the religious sect making the claim? "

                          I am glad that you think it is possible, however where or when did I say that I never questioned it?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                            Dear 37818:

                            Do you notice how you use the Bible as if everything stated therein, including the month and day of the week of Jesus' death, is assumed as given fact?

                            Ask Jewish scholars if there is any corroborating evidence for Jesus being executed on Passover...(or the Day of Preparation, if you are reading John's gospel). They will say, "None whatsoever." I believe this is a false dichotomy that Christians frequently fall for: the Bible is 100% historical fact, or it is all lies and falsehoods.

                            Why can't it be some of both?
                            Looking at it from outside my faith view, it can be such. The dates I cited are based on, my personal understanding of the NT accounts. Mark, John and Luke. Matthew and Mark some what the same. The Jewish next day begins at the sunset, that being the evening. Mark 14:12 can be identified as the 14th of Nisan Exodus 12:6. The 15th that evening v.17 Jesus and his disciples ate that Jewish Passover. Is this so hard to follow from the account?
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by William View Post
                              yes, they can be. Do you believe everyone's personal testimonies about anything though?
                              I give them due consideration. I try not to blow off anyone's personal testimony.

                              I guess what i am getting at is, what about certain testimonies do you find as compelling evidence for what they believe in?

                              I don't know. Probably seeing people that you know personally experiencing miracles or breakthrough, and then experiencing that yourself. Like I said though, it's part of a wider cumulative case.


                              Out of curiosity, have you ever spent much time in other cultures or with people of different religions?
                              Yes. I was raised in a cult so I spend many years with a perspective quite unlike those around me. I've also spent much time associating with people in other new religious movements.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by William View Post
                                it just means I dont believe him on that point. I dont hold the cosmic keys to truth, nor does anyone else. I do the best i can. For that entails thinking things through, study, and trying to be objective and fair.

                                So you believe Jesus in essentially God. I do not believe this. Who's right? you have an opinion and so do I. neither can prove or disprove these opinions. we weigh them for ourselves, correct? Hopefully never being satisfied that we have it all figured out 100%, because that would mean we've stopped looking.

                                many things led to my deconversion, but while I was contemplating all that I had seen and read, it dawned on me that faith was never in God and could not have been, because the Bible is written by men who claimed certain things about God, then copied by men, translated by men, canonized by men, and sold to me by men - so in order for me to ever have faith in the God that makes claims about, i first had to have faith in their claims; in claims of men. It seemed to me that Faith in the Biblical God is therefore rooted first in faith in men.

                                That realization, along with all the other stuff just wouldn't allow me to believe it anymore. But I still look and am willing to look. I just haven't seen anything convincing yet.
                                If your friend told you that he saw bigfoot wander into town, and that hundreds of other people witnessed it too, would you still be as likely to disbelieve? Especially if you could to and talk to those people?

                                Comment

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