Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Mikeenders]

No archeological evidence,

Yawn ........he tries desperately yet again to wipe the egg glued to his face.......Midian pottery at Kadesh dating to the conventional dating of exodus - multiple possible references to other point of the exodus accounts if you push it back to 14-1500s - not read Rohl yet eh? I mean now that you and him agree on a later date - magically in the last 48 hours - you should now be best buds so go read his work.

Your claims of no evidence - debate over - matter settled are toast. You can post as often as you will but you cannot untoast it. Research continues and your consensus of one claiming the debate is over has been debunked.

[Gary]

No archeological evidence, no commemoration of this devastating Egyptian defeat anywhere in the Near East, multiple anachronisms in the text...and the brain-washed continue to ask us to believe it is an historical fact.

And upon this very, very tenuous "historical" event, Christians ask us to believe that a first century carpenter's son is the Creator of the Universe and the fulfillment of all these ancient events in Egypt and the Sinai; a peasant who lived a perfect life, died for the transgressions of the entire world, and then three days later, rose from the dead and levitated into outer space...to reign on a great throne, at the fringe of the farthest galaxy, to watch for two thousand years and counting, millions and millions and millions of men, women, and children suffer horrific violence, disease, and death...but do absolutely nothing to stop it. And we are asked to believe that this is reality.

Good grief. This is the 21st century, for Pete's sake. It is time to abandon such outrageous superstitions.

This entire concocted fiction is the biggest farce ever foisted on the human race! It is ignorant, superstitious nonsense! Use your educated brains and accept the obvious: It's just a fable. A silly, silly , superstitious fable.

[tabibito]

Which part of post 3848

"This is just outright weird ... I'm not buying the connection with exodus necessarily: it seems to be a foray into eisegesis."

did Gary fail to understand as my skepticism of the article I copied?

The Ipuwer Papyrus looks like a reasonably standard description of an invasion of almost anywhere in that period of history: the papyrus has only one point of application to the exodus. Also stated in post 3848:

the references to Hebrew slaves (or more likely, Semitic) flies in the face of every claim to the contrary on atheist sites.

Calculations of the timing of any event, including the exodus, based on the records of the Bible ARE likely to be somewhat mercurial for any event prior to the establishment of Shiloh (and maybe even the first temple). Right now, and acknowledging a possible confirmation bias, my money is on Amenhotep III as the Pharaoh of the exodus (with a side bet on Thutmose IV), which would put it 100 years (roughly) later than calculations based on the time (1446 BC) that - according to Gary's report - the Biblical records suggest.

You are a fundamentalist non-expert trying to fit the evidence into your ancient fable, instead of following the evidence to a scholarly conclusion.

Even if the claim was true, this would be no more than the pot calling the kettle blacktail.The only difference would be "modern fable" as opposed to "ancient fable."

I accept evidence.

And no evidence as well, provided that there is confluence with his pre-conceived beliefs.

There is evidence for the existence of Israelite kings Ahab, Omri, Josiah and others. I accept their historicity. You on the other will not accept any evidence that proves that your inerrant Bronze Age holy book made a mistake.

Near as I can tell, Mikeenders is quite au fait with errors in the Bible. That Gary doesn't recognise errors as NOT showing the Bible to be wholly unreliable is a problem - given his own unreliability, should we perhaps ipso facto disregard everything he posts as worthless?

You are a fundamentalist, the most dangerous and most untrustworthy of all "researchers".

And yet more pot calling the kettle blacktail: on all points. The one consistently ignoring data that might have negative impact on a held position is none other than Gary himself.

[Mikeenders]

Dear Readers, Look at what is going on:

Yes dear reader lets look at what is going on

Gary proclaims that there is no evidence of a settlement at Kadesh because previous research indicated that there was no settlement before 10th century and the accepted dates for many scholars is 1200 BC. He is reminded of a link he refused to read previously which blows his point. Gary admits that the researcher is not an evangelical conservative but friends with Finkelstein but is so vastly undeducated and ignorant he claims that friends of HIS OWN respected scholar are on the fringe of research claiming that date coincides with the exodus merely because they put egg on his face by showing there is potential evidence of a settlement at the time the non evangelistic scholars claim the exodus happened

Then Gary, dear readers , in his VAST ignorance claims that the date in 1200s BC is not derived from any Biblical source but hasn't even read his own skeptic sites

The reign of Ramesses II (Ramesses the Great) has long been considered a candidate for the Exodus, due to the biblical reference to the city of Per‐Ramesses[9], which was largely constructed during his reign.[10]. Ramesses II reigned for just over 66 years, circa 1279–1213 BCE.[8]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

Then dear readers Gary in again vast ignorance tries to claim that because there is a wide range of dates that are under consideration Christians are all over the place but dear reader the range of dates is derived from inadequacies in historical chronologies that have nothing to do with the Bible as this article shows even with a massive eruption that affected most of earth

http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/10...eruption/66777

Here with no issue of religion or the Bible or Christianity Scholars are unable to set a date within even a hundred years of an event that affected most of the then known world regardless of the fact that it was bam slam in the middle of recorded human history. So dear reader you can see Gary is fibbing that a range of dates in archaeology is a sign of Christians trying to evade things.

Gary in likewise ignorance proclaims the debate is over but as the research indicates data is still coming in and this new data pushes back the pottery found at Kadesh hundreds of years. - so clearly research is ongoing.

Finally dear reader when confronted with evidence of a settlement in Kadesh proving him wrong Gary appeals to conservative websites dating of exodus by evangelicals (who he previously stated in this thread are biased and not to be relied on) and claims a 1400 date for the exodus, ignorantly oblivious to the fact that date puts putting him right back in the time period of the Patterns of Evidence publication - which he stated previously was debunked -appeals to as well.

In other words dear reader he is trying to jump out of the frying pan to end up in the flames but he is just too uneducated on the issues to realize it.

Just ignorance on top of ignorance on top of ignorance

This dear readers along with other blunders, refusing to read books and other comments of ignorance and bias is why Gary has been such a laughing stock in this thread

[Gary]

So what do we have so far as evidence that the biblical story of the Exodus did not happen:

1. A lack of archeological evidence for any mass exodus of Canaanite/Semitic slaves from Egypt at anytime in the history of Egypt.
2. A lack of any record of the devastating plagues in the (two) time periods alleged for the Exodus.
3. A lack of any record of a severely weakened Egyptian military and economy in the (two) alleged time periods.
4. A lack of any record of a mass invasion of Canaan during the (two) alleged time periods.

And now may I present another piece of evidence for why we should not trust the text which includes this tall tale: Anachronisms:

Anachronisms are out of place words or phrases. For example, a story from the 18th century AD would not talk about computers, atomic power, or airplanes because they were not invented yet.

1. In Genesis there is the repeated use of camels. Camels were not widely used until after 1000 BC. In the Joseph story there is a camel caravan carrying "gum, balm, and myrrh" which best fits the Arabian trade of the 8-7th centuries BC. Assyrian texts describe the use of camels in caravans in the 7th century. There is a large increase of camel bones in the archaeological record at this same time.

2. In Genesis (26:1) the Philistines are encountered, but it was not until after 1200 BC that the Philistines settled on the coastal plain of Canaan. Gerar, a Philistine city is mentioned (Gen. 20:1), but excavations show this was just a small village in Iron Age I.

3. The Arameans, Jacob's relatives, are not mentioned as an ethic group until 1100 BC. The Arameans did not become dominate until the 9th century BC. It is suggested that the stories of Jacob and Laban metaphorically express the stormy relationship between Aram and Israel.

4. The kingdom Edom did not exist before the late 8th century BC. Edom became a serious rival of Israel only during the Assyrian period. Ammon and Moab were not nations at the time of Moses.

5. The descendants of Ishmael (Gen. 25:12-15), the Kedarites are mentioned for the first time in the Assyrian records in the late 8th century BC. Before this time they lived beyond Israel's interest. Tema and Sheba are mentioned in Assyrian records between 8-6th centuries BC.

6. The war in Genesis 14 seems only to fit the geography of the 7th century BC. En-mishpat or Kadesh most likely refers to Kadesh-barnea, a great oasis which was mainly occupied in the 7th and early 6th century.

7. The capitals of the Assyrian empire are mentioned, Nineveh (7th century) and Calah its predecessor (Gen. 10:11). Haran was prosperous during the Neo-Assyrian period. Assyrian texts mention towns near Haran resembling the names of Terah, Nahor, and Serug, Abraham's forefathers (Gen. 11:22-26). There is also a town called Ur.

The German Biblical scholar Martin Noth posits that "the patriarchs were originally quite separate regional ancestors, who were eventually brought together in a single genealogy in an effort to create a united history" (p.43). The stories of Abraham center around Hebron. Isaac centers around Beersheba, and Jacob around the northern hill country.

Finkelstein and Silberman posit that Judah was a small isolated kingdom until the Assyrians conquered Israel in 720 BC. Many refugees flooded into Judah which then developed complex state institutions. There was a need to unite all the Israelites together. Thus a united history was created with a united kingdom. The patriarchal narratives attempt to redefine the unity of Israel. Abraham builds altars at Shechem and Bethel, the two most important cult centers of the northern kingdom, and Hebron in the south. Abraham functions as a unifier of both northern and southern traditions (p.44).

Finkelstein and Silberman claim that all of these anachronisms indicate that Genesis was composed in the 8-7th century BC.

Source: https://www.bibleandscience.com/bibl.../unearthed.htm

[Gary]

Dear Readers, Look at what is going on:

Mike wants to move the dates of the Exodus several centuries later so that he can claim a presence of the Israelites in Kadesh-Barnea, but Tabby wants to move the dates many hundreds of years earlier to account for the plagues! Mike needs to account for the plagues in his proposed harmonization, and Tabby needs to account for a lack of evidence for any settlement activity in Kadesh-Barnea!

...And Christian apologist Dr. Frank Turek wants to move the whole story to Saudi Arabia!

Christians are all over the place on this alleged historical event! It just proves that Christians will concoct any excuse to maintain their belief in their "inerrant" Bronze Age holy book!

[37818]

Gary,

The Patterns of Evidence places those events maybe as much as some 200 years before 1446 BC. There is evidence that suggests the common Hebrew reading of 1 Kings 6:1 is not its original reading BTW. See Adam Clarke commentary for example.

[Mikeenders]

Another claim debunked even by evangelical Christian archeologists. This claim was presented in a documentary. The Associates for Biblical Research have debunked it here:

ROFL...HAHAHAHA...Gary is now reduced to appealing to evangelical Christian archaeologist that he stated before cannot be trusted for anything due to their bias. On the bright side if you wish to see comedic entertainment we can now all appeal and link to ABR and see Gary to do a unicycle 180 turn.

[Mikeenders]

I reiterate my statement: There is no evidence of any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during the time period that the BIBLE says the Exodus took place. You are inventing new dates to try to fit the story with the evidence..

I reiterate your stupidity and ignorance is noted. The general scholarly consensus (to the degree there is any) as to the time of the exodus is what that article relates to. the dating does in part come from the Bible due to its mention of Per‐Ramesses in the Biblical text. Go and learn what you are talking about and come back. If you wish to now join conservative early date scholars then you will fall into even more trouble claiming there is no evidence and you might as well sit down and read some Rohl. You are so rattled by your nonsense being exposed as nonsense you are blundering over and over again not even knowing what consensus or fringe is. Go read a book and stop embarrassing yourself

Either way once again you lose in claiming facts or your laugable the debate is over claims. Oviously the other take away from the article is that research continues and is not settled. Your still in time out but congrats on keeping your posts to two sentences so I would bother reading them.

[Gary]

There is a whole lot of these happy "coincidences" out there which is why I stated things like Pattern of Evidence are still worth it to look at because regardless if you reject the overall premise of Rohl no one really claims the facts he brings up are fabrication. Its also the reason why dating is HUGE and probably the single greatest issue in the debate on Exodus (and saying otherwise is just blithering drivelling idiotic nonsense). When you put the sum of these facts together (And my understanding there is more coming that hasn't been published yet) to me there only are three options

A) you have one whale of a coincidence that defies statistic probability that the biblical story just happens to be mirrored with a few hundred of years history of events that happened in Egypt. What are the odds you write a story and in SEVERAL areas your story matches what is recorded in Egypt (without of course any embarrassing references to defeat of their Gods)?

B) Someone with uncanny (for the time ) knowledge of Egyptian records carefully crafted a story to reflect what happened in Egypt (and elsewhere) over those hundreds of years (why they would craft such a story carefully to follow the records and then make several uturns that defy the record would be unexplained)

C) the story is historical

Depending on dating the claims that no records of anything related to The exodus vanish. This is why Thera is so interesting. We have a cataclysmic event (at least for those within hundreds and hundreds of miles of the eruption) and the dating of it is unknown within a time period of over a hundred years. the reasons we can;t date the eruption accurately is because of problems in the chronology that we have. Thera pinpoints those inadequacies without even having a biblical discussion. As you probably already know the overlap of the possible range of dates for the eruption of Thera overlap the period of the exodus so some people even claim the eruption explains some of the events noted in Exodus.

You are a fundamentalist non-expert trying to fit the evidence into your ancient fable, instead of following the evidence to a scholarly conclusion.

I accept evidence. There is evidence for the existence of Israelite kings Ahab, Omri, Josiah and others. I accept their historicity. You on the other will not accept any evidence that proves that your inerrant Bronze Age holy book made a mistake. You are a fundamentalist, the most dangerous and most untrustworthy of all "researchers".

[Gary]

OK - Here's a "what the" moment.

The Ipuwer Papyrus is a single papyrus holding an ancient Egyptian poem, called The Admonitions of Ipuwer[1] or The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All.[2] Its official designation is Papyrus Leiden I 344 recto.[3] It is housed in the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden, Netherlands, after being purchased from Giovanni Anastasi, the Swedish consul to Egypt, in 1828. The sole surviving manuscript dates to the later 13th century BCE (no earlier than the 19th dynasty in the New Kingdom).

The Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt as afflicted by natural disasters and in a state of chaos, a topsy-turvy world where the poor have become rich, and the rich poor, and warfare, famine and death are everywhere. One symptom of this collapse of order is the lament that servants are leaving their servitude and acting rebelliously. There is a dispute around interpretations of the document as an Egyptian account of the events described in the Exodus.

I won't draw any conclusions about an exodus connection without a bit of delving - but this is the first time I've found any mention of the papyrus in question.

Another claim debunked even by evangelical Christian archeologists. This claim was presented in a documentary. The Associates for Biblical Research have debunked it here:

The $3.5 million documentary The Exodus Decoded made its US debut August 20 on the History Channel. Previously it had been broadcast on the Discovery Channel in Canada in April and was shown at the Jerusalem Film Festival in July. Produced and narrated by Simcha Jacobovici, the film purportedly provides new evidence to demonstrate the Exodus really happened. Some of Jacobovici’s points are old hat, having been proposed before, while others are indeed new. But, alas, the presentation suffers from the same fate as other similar “documentaries”—dates are revised willy-nilly to make everything neatly come together to explain the events of the Exodus. In the end, Jacobovici does more harm than good since he mishandles the archaeological evidence, hence providing fuel to skeptics who wish to undermine the Exodus.

The information is conveniently organized by “Exhibits.” Let us examine the Exhibits one-by-one to check their credibility.

Exhibit G: Ipuwer Plagues Papyrus. Jacobovici now calls on the Ipuwer Papyrus, which he believes provides evidence for a plague of “ice and fire mingled together.” The seventh plague of hail, he says, is volcanic hail induced by Santorini as described in the Ipuwer Papyrus. Again, we have a chronological problem. Although Jacobovici states that many scholars date the Ipuwer Papyrus to the Hyksos period, the fact of the matter is that most Egyptologists date it to the First Intermediate Period (ca. 2100 BC) or the late Middle Kingdom (ca. 1700 BC) (Shupak 1997: 93), well before Jacobovici’s Exodus date of 1500 BC.

(Ipuwer Papyrus, National Archaeological Museum, Leiden, Netherlands. It tells of ordeals and calamities blamed on an unnamed king, perhaps Pepy II (ca. 2300–2206 BC) of the Sixth Dynasty, and predicts better times under a coming, ideal monarch.)

Source: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...s-Decoded.aspx

[Gary]

Said the guy who just got his head handed to him claiming Kadesh had no settlements at the time of the exodus. I might acclimatize myself to reading more than one or two lines from your post in a week but after that fiasco you are in time out from me bothering much with your posts. Send Finkelstein a box of tissues - with the flow of data proving him wrong increasing each month he is probably running low. Don't dip into his box. seeing as how the exodus was supposed to be where you trounced Nick but instead was shown to be wrong on Kadesh I can understand your own use for the tissues

I reiterate my statement: There is no evidence of any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during the time period that the BIBLE says the Exodus took place. You are inventing new dates to try to fit the story with the evidence. However, the story specifically states it took place in the mid-fifteenth century. This is the position of the overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars as I have previously pointed out. Your position is the fringe of the fringe. It deserves not one second of serious consideration.

"The date of the Biblical exodus-conquest is clear. 1 Kgs 6:1 and 1 Chr 6:33–37 converge on a date of 1446 BC for the exodus and the Jubilees data and Judg 11:26 independently converge on a date of 1406 BC for the beginning of the conquest."

[Mikeenders]

Egyptologist David Rohl, who doesn’t claim to be a Christian, has written two books on how biblical accounts relating to Egypt, Joseph, and Moses are astonishingly accurate. He believes Joseph and Moses were historic characters and cites Bronze Age slave lists containing Hebrew names, the grave goods of an underclass discovered at Avaris (the biblical Goshen), and Egyptian “plague pits” full of skeletal remains.

This is just outright weird ... I'm not buying the connection with exodus necessarily: it seems to be a foray into eisegesis. But the references to Hebrew slaves (or more likely, Semitic) flies in the face of every claim to the contrary on atheist sites.

There is a whole lot of these happy "coincidences" out there which is why I stated things like Pattern of Evidence are still worth it to look at because regardless if you reject the overall premise of Rohl no one really claims the facts he brings up are fabrication. Its also the reason why dating is HUGE and probably the single greatest issue in the debate on Exodus (and saying otherwise is just blithering drivelling idiotic nonsense). When you put the sum of these facts together (And my understanding there is more coming that hasn't been published yet) to me there only are three options

A) you have one whale of a coincidence that defies statistic probability that the biblical story just happens to be mirrored with a few hundred of years history of events that happened in Egypt. What are the odds you write a story and in SEVERAL areas your story matches what is recorded in Egypt (without of course any embarrassing references to defeat of their Gods)?

B) Someone with uncanny (for the time ) knowledge of Egyptian records carefully crafted a story to reflect what happened in Egypt (and elsewhere) over those hundreds of years (why they would craft such a story carefully to follow the records and then make several uturns that defy the record would be unexplained)

C) the story is historical

Depending on dating the claims that no records of anything related to The exodus vanish. This is why Thera is so interesting. We have a cataclysmic event (at least for those within hundreds and hundreds of miles of the eruption) and the dating of it is unknown within a time period of over a hundred years. the reasons we can;t date the eruption accurately is because of problems in the chronology that we have. Thera pinpoints those inadequacies without even having a biblical discussion. As you probably already know the overlap of the possible range of dates for the eruption of Thera overlap the period of the exodus so some people even claim the eruption explains some of the events noted in Exodus.

[tabibito]

The first plague (turning the Nile to blood). The Nile River, which formed the basis of daily life and the national economy in Egypt, was devastated as millions of fish died and the water was unusable. Pharaoh was told by God, “By this you will know that I am the LORD” (Exodus 7:17). The Ipuwer Papyrus says, “Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere” (2:5–6). “The river is blood. . . . Men shrink from tasting—human beings, and thirst after water” (2:10). “That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin” (3:10–13).

The fifth plague (the death of livestock). God protected His people from this plague, while the cattle of the Egyptians died. God was steadily destroying the economy of Egypt, while showing His ability to protect and provide for those who obeyed Him. Pharaoh even sent investigators (Exodus 9:18–35) to find out if the Israelites were suffering along with the Egyptians, but the result was a hardening of his heart against them. The Ipuwer Papyrus says, “All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan” (5:5). “Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together (9:2–3).

The seventh plague (hail and fire). This hail was unlike any that had been seen before. It was accompanied by a fire which ran along the ground, and everything left out in the open was devastated by the hail and fire. Again, the children of Israel were miraculously protected, and no hail damaged anything in their lands (Exodus 9:35). The [I][I]Ipuwer Papyrus says, “Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire” (2:10). “Lower Egypt weeps. . . . The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish” (10:3–6). “Forsooth, grain has perished on every side” (6:3). “Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax” (5:12).

The ninth plague (darkness). For three days, the land of Egypt was smothered with an unearthly darkness, but the homes of the Israelites had light (Exodus 10:22–23). The Ipuwer Papyrus says, “The land is without light” (9:11). Hmmm... that one looks like a stretch. "Land without light" could very easily be a reference to hopelessness.

The tenth and last plague (the death of firstborn males). Every household that did not apply the blood of the Passover sacrifice saw the death of the firstborn (Exodus 12:23). The Ipuwer Papyrus says, “Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls” (4:3 and 5:6). “Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets” (6:12). “He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere” (2:13). “It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations” (3:14).

The Ipuwer Papyrus also contains a possible reference to the Hebrews’ departure from Egypt, laden with treasures: “Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze . . . are fastened on the neck of female slaves” (3:2; cf. Exodus 12:35–38).

Further, there is a possible description of the pillar of fire: “Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land” (7:1; cf. Exodus 13:20–22).Not buying this as a connection at all.

Egyptologist David Rohl, who doesn’t claim to be a Christian, has written two books on how biblical accounts relating to Egypt, Joseph, and Moses are astonishingly accurate. He believes Joseph and Moses were historic characters and cites Bronze Age slave lists containing Hebrew names, the grave goods of an underclass discovered at Avaris (the biblical Goshen), and Egyptian “plague pits” full of skeletal remains.

This is just outright weird ... I'm not buying the connection with exodus necessarily: it seems to be a foray into eisegesis. But the references to Hebrew slaves (or more likely, Semitic) flies in the face of every claim to the contrary on atheist sites.

[tabibito]

OK - Here's a "what the" moment.

The Ipuwer Papyrus is a single papyrus holding an ancient Egyptian poem, called The Admonitions of Ipuwer[1] or The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All.[2] Its official designation is Papyrus Leiden I 344 recto.[3] It is housed in the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden, Netherlands, after being purchased from Giovanni Anastasi, the Swedish consul to Egypt, in 1828. The sole surviving manuscript dates to the later 13th century BCE (no earlier than the 19th dynasty in the New Kingdom).

The Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt as afflicted by natural disasters and in a state of chaos, a topsy-turvy world where the poor have become rich, and the rich poor, and warfare, famine and death are everywhere. One symptom of this collapse of order is the lament that servants are leaving their servitude and acting rebelliously. There is a dispute around interpretations of the document as an Egyptian account of the events described in the Exodus.

I won't draw any conclusions about an exodus connection without a bit of delving - but this is the first time I've found any mention of the papyrus in question.