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  • Humans are not robots. We don't always behave logically. Cognitive biases will affect how one sees the evidence.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • I am going to post a couple of links to Jewish websites that explain why the overwhelming majority of Jews, for 2,000 years, have been unimpressed with the Christian evidence regarding Jesus. The fact that a small number of first century Jews DID believe the Christian claims, in an Honor-Shame society, does not seem to be impressive evidence to Jews.

      http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

      http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

      http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/11/07...nd-never-will/


      Next I am going to post links to videos of Orthodox Jewish author, Asher Norman, author of, "Twenty-Six Reasons why Jews don't Believe in Jesus", presenting powerful Jewish evidence for why Jesus could NOT have been the Jewish Messiah:

      https://myspace.com/twenty_sixreason...jesus/31421481

      http://www.26reasons.com/

      So even though Nick may find it impressive that a small group of first century Jews, who were mostly from the uneducated lowers classes, believed this shameful new belief, the fact that the overwhelming majority of Jews, and an even higher number of educated, Hebrew-Bible-literate Jews did not and still today do not believe, to me, nullifies Nick's claim that this belief in an Honor-Shame society is "good" or "strong" evidence. It appears pretty weak: It only convinces a scant minority of the members of the Honor-Shame society in question.
      Last edited by Gary; 08-03-2015, 12:47 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        He appeared to James and he appeared to Paul. These were not believers. Furthermore, this is being your position because you consistently say "Well do you believe these claims?" Well no. We don't because we see the evidence as weak. If you can show me a well-attested miracle outside of Christianity, I can believe it. It's based on the evidence.

        And if you're still wanting to say miracles don't happen today, it is essential to reply to a work like Craig Keener's.
        When examining miracle claims, one must be sure that we are not calling something a "miracle" if it is possible that the event is simply a rare, but natural event. For instance, someone may believe that for them to have won the lottery there must have been divine intervention, or a "miracle". But someone has to win the lottery. The fact that you won the lottery is not a miracle but a very rare natural result of winning against incredibly bad odds.

        Would you care to quote one of Keener's alleged miracles; one that could not be explained in a similar fashion; "winning against very bad odds"?

        For instance, there are many claims of miracles regarding cancer, but cancer can go into remission, even the worst types of cancer on rare occasions. So was your cure from a deadly cancer a "miracle" or just an example of winning against bad odds? If Keener can show me just one amputee whose arm or leg grew back due to prayer, I will believe that a true miracle has happened.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          CBW is certainly right on this. Internal guilt was not something that Paul would have wrestled with. Shame would be more like it and his fellow Jews would not be shaming him for what he did to the Christians.
          If Paul would not have felt guilty about killing a minority sect of Jews because the majority of Jews would not be shaming him, then why did Judas Iscariot commit suicide by hanging due to his guilt over betraying Jesus? The majority of Jews would have praised his action in turning in a "messiah imposter". There would have been great honor in doing so. So if honor and shame were the only driving factors, Judas would have never hung himself.

          Sorry, I just don't buy this Honor-Shame thing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
            And Jews have thoroughly studied the Christian claims. Orthodox Jewish author, Asher Norman, has written a best seller (among Jews) entitled, "Twenty-Six Reasons why Jews don't believe in Jesus", that reviews every major Christian claim regarding Jesus and thoroughly refutes them. I urge every Christian to read it.
            Per reviewer "Looking for truth":
            Having read widely in literature dealing with Jewish-Christian dialog in recent years, I picked up this book with interest, wondering if it would have anything new and informative in it. While the book is nicely laid out and clearly written, it fails completely to do what it sets out to do, namely, offer strong arguments why Jews (or Gentiles for that matter) should not believe in Jesus. More importantly, the author puts forth the same arguments that have been refuted and answered many times over, most recently and comprehensively in Michael Brown's multi-volume series Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus (a series not even mentioned in the bibliography!).

            If Mr. Norman wants his book to be taken seriously, it behooves him to take into account the solid answers that have been provided to these arguments in decades past and today, to interact with those who differ with his views, and to offer even one reason why a Jewish person should not follow Jesus as Messiah.
            Apparently informed readers beg to differ with your assessment of the work.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Per reviewer "Looking for truth":


              Apparently informed readers beg to differ with your assessment of the work.
              So based on ONE review by someone who is obviously a Christian, you discount Norman's book? Isn't that being a little biased?

              I recommend reading the book for yourself. Norman's book is quoted frequently among Jews as an excellent source to refute Christian claims, so obviously all of Judaism disagrees with "Looking for Truth's" opinion.

              I read the book and quoted excerpts on my blog. I'll post a link.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                So based on ONE review by someone who is obviously a Christian, you discount Norman's book? Isn't that being a little biased?

                I recommend reading the book for yourself. Norman's book is quoted frequently among Jews as an excellent source to refute Christian claims, so obviously all of Judaism disagrees with "Looking for Truth's" opinion.

                I read the book and quoted excerpts on my blog. I'll post a link.
                http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com...-interval.html

                http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com...orted-old.html

                http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com...-three-of.html


                Jews believe that Christian translators altered Isaiah 53:

                http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com...stort-and.html

                And, Jews have proof that Jesus is not the messiah of Daniel chapter 9:

                http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com...s-was-not.html
                Last edited by Gary; 08-03-2015, 03:38 PM.

                Comment


                • Argument by weblink? Really???
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    Argument by weblink? Really???
                    Would you rather that I copy and paste them?

                    My purpose in providing these links is to back up my position that Nick's argument, that first century Jews in an Honor-Shame society would not believe in the shameful Christian claims unless they had really seen a resurrected dead man is very weak. Jews then and now don't buy Nick's argument.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      Would you rather that I copy and paste them?

                      My purpose in providing these links is to back up my position that Nick's argument, that first century Jews in an Honor-Shame society would not believe in the shameful Christian claims unless they had really seen a resurrected dead man is very weak. Jews then and now don't buy Nick's argument.
                      It's against tweb rules...
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        So based on ONE review by someone who is obviously a Christian, you discount Norman's book? Isn't that being a little biased?

                        I recommend reading the book for yourself. Norman's book is quoted frequently among Jews as an excellent source to refute Christian claims, so obviously all of Judaism disagrees with "Looking for Truth's" opinion.

                        I read the book and quoted excerpts on my blog. I'll post a link.
                        Gary, thanks for finally responding to one of my posts! I read more than one review - the reviewer I quoted is not the only one who was articulately less than impressed. And "all of Judaism" may be insufficiently well-read to come to an informed decision on the material. In my opinion, a work which ignores the existence of counter-claims in existence well before publication tends to be of limited value.

                        Why did you rate Hannibal's use of elephants in crossing the Alps as a 5? Still wondering.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Gary, thanks for finally responding to one of my posts! I read more than one review - the reviewer I quoted is not the only one who was articulately less than impressed. And "all of Judaism" may be insufficiently well-read to come to an informed decision on the material. In my opinion, a work which ignores the existence of counter-claims in existence well before publication tends to be of limited value.

                          Why did you rate Hannibal's use of elephants in crossing the Alps as a 5? Still wondering.
                          Look it up. Not all historians believe it happened, though I would say most do.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Gary, thanks for finally responding to one of my posts! I read more than one review - the reviewer I quoted is not the only one who was articulately less than impressed. And "all of Judaism" may be insufficiently well-read to come to an informed decision on the material. In my opinion, a work which ignores the existence of counter-claims in existence well before publication tends to be of limited value.

                            Why did you rate Hannibal's use of elephants in crossing the Alps as a 5? Still wondering.
                            Did you read this review:

                            Asher Norman's book 'Twenty Six Reasons' is a clear, comprehensive, presentation of why the Jewish people do not accept Jesus as the messiah and as g-d. I'm a non-Jew, who discovered this book while searching for an easy, but informative read that explains the reasons for the Jewish people's rejection of Jesus. Having corresponded with the author prior to and after purchasing his book I highly recommend 'Twenty Six Reasons' to anyone (especially Christians) looking for a trustworthy source on the topic.

                            Asher Norman's book definitely challenges many traditional Protestant/Catholic views about the apostle Paul, the claim that Jesus lived a sinless life, and he also offers his own perspective of some of the socio-historical factors of Jesus' life to explain Jesus' behavior which I've found to be intriguing. Some of Asher's claims make sense, others (due to my lack of familiarity with the content) I have yet to accept or reject.

                            The frustration I have with any Christian rebuttal or apologetic response to any anti-missionary work, including `Twenty Six Reasons', is that most Christians argue with the presumption that what the Christian Bible claims is irrefutably true i.e., that Jesus was, in fact, born of a virgin, that Jesus was sinless, that Jesus is the messiah and g-d incarnate, etc; and that these claims are adequately supported by the Tanakh.

                            Unfortunately, most Christians are primarily introduced to and taught to view the Hebrew Scriptures through the lens of Christian oral tradition or through the interpretation/interpolation of the proof-texts contained within the Christian Bible. The problem with this approach is that neither Christian oral traditions nor the Christian Bible are preeminent in matters of theology and correct faith for the Jew.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Gary, thanks for finally responding to one of my posts! I read more than one review - the reviewer I quoted is not the only one who was articulately less than impressed. And "all of Judaism" may be insufficiently well-read to come to an informed decision on the material. In my opinion, a work which ignores the existence of counter-claims in existence well before publication tends to be of limited value.

                              Why did you rate Hannibal's use of elephants in crossing the Alps as a 5? Still wondering.
                              And here is another review:

                              Price: $24.95

                              "Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus" by Asher Norman.

                              The Answer To A 2000-Year-Old-Question: A new book definitively answers the 2000-year-old-question, "Why don't the Jewish People "believe" in Jesus?" Attorney and author Asher Norman's seminal work, Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus, provides a powerful answer for Jews, Christians, and the theologically curious. The author puts Jesus on trial as a man, showing that he was a sinner, and as a "deity," showing that he was elected "god" by Gentile Catholic Bishops. This is the only readable and comprehensive book of its kind that enables Jews ranging from the unschooled in Torah to the Talmudic scholar to answer questions and challenges by Christian friends, relatives, and co-workers. It is also a comprehensive reference and resource for Jews to understand and reject the claims of so-called "messianic Jews," who specifically target Jews for conversion.

                              The Problem of Idolatry for Jews: According Asher Norman, "Most people would be shocked to learn that according to Jewish theology, when a Jew (not a Gentile) worships Jesus they commit the sin of idolatry, punished by "kores," separation from God forever in the World To Come." So-called "messianic Jews" are a particular problem because they often use highly deceptive practices. They falsely claim that it is possible to be both a Jew and a Christian. Leaders of so-called "messianic synagogues" pretend to be rabbis but are usually ordained Christian ministers. They deceitfully wear and utilize Jewish symbols and mimic Jewish services while worshiping Jesus. There are now 100 "messianic synagogues" in 30 states and an additional 15 in foreign countries.

                              Jesus Didn't Qualify as the Jewish Messiah: With candor and scholarship, Asher Norman explains, "Jesus did not fulfill the six main messianic criteria established by prophets of Israel. Significantly, the Jewish messiah will be a mortal man, not a 'divine being.' Most people are not aware that Jesus' supernatural history was not original. Jesus was preceded by the pagan religions of god-men/women, such as Attis, Adonis, Isis, Mithras and Dionysus. They were all born on the 25th of December. Dionysus, Attis, and Adonis were born of virgin mothers. Dionysus had 12 disciples and was resurrected after three days. Mithras utilized a sacred meal using the body and blood of a bull and used baptism to purify initiates."

                              The Antidote: "Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus." Author Asher Norman is a lawyer, an Orthodox Jew, and an expert on Jewish-Christian polemics. His book is based upon painstaking research and he has lectured nationally on this subject for several years. He utilizes his legal training to put Christianity's faith claims about Jesus on trial.

                              Asher Norman will examine (1) Who was Jesus? Was he a man, the son of man, a prophet, a deity, a member of the trinity? Asher will critique: (2) the theory of the trinity, (3) the credibility of the Christian Bible, (4) the credibility of the Jesus story including inconsistencies in the resurrection accounts, and the similarities between Jesus and prior mythical god-men, (5) the issues associated with vicarious blood sacrifice as atonement for sin, (6) whether Jesus was an anti-Roman zealot, and (7) the issues associated with the apostle Paul and his theology.

                              THE VERDICT: The Jewish People will never believe in Jesus.

                              Paperback
                              304 pp
                              February 24, 2007
                              ISBN-10: 0977193705
                              ISBN-13: 978-0977193707

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                Such as whom?
                                Anyone who was wealthy and these would be people who ran house churches. This would also include people who were paying for the texts of Paul to be copied. Do you realize that even a short epistle of Paul's by today's standards would cost around $500 to produce? That doesn't come cheap. Paul had to have wealthy backers. Some such people would include people like Erastus and Philemon.

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