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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    My position is that a person who declares the statements of attested-by-God-apostles to be false needs a solid argument in favour of gainsaying them. You haven't mounted any such argument, just fallen back on appeals to questionable authority.
    Once again I must remind you conservative Christians that YOU are the ones making the extraordinary claim: the resurrection of a dead man. In our culture, like it or not, the person or persons making the extraordinary claim have the burden of proof to prove that claim. The burden of proof is NOT on those of us who question your extra-ordinary claim.

    As mentioned above, if you and your buddies believe that you had a conversation with a space alien last night, the onus is on YOU to give evidence of your claim if you expect anyone else to believe it. The onus is NOT on those of us who doubt your claim, to prove you did not have this extra-terrestial experience.

    And I assert that the only evidence that you have for your extra-ordinary claim is the following:

    1. Four anonymous books, written decades after the event, which describe the alleged appearances of this allegedly resurrected man, the four books containing numerous discrepancies, and two maybe three of those books borrowing heavily from the first to write their story of the event.

    2. The testimony of one man who believed he had seen a talking bright light on a lonely, desert highway.

    3. People who were willing to die for their belief.

    4. People in an honor shame society who were willing to believe a shameful belief.

    To me, this is poor evidence. There are many naturalistic explanations for each of these points. Christians are welcome to believe that this is sufficient evidence for THEM to believe, but more and more educated people are seeing this evidence as nothing more than the hysteria and superstitions of uneducated, superstitious ancient peoples, no different than the origins of many other superstitious beliefs in human history.
    Last edited by Gary; 08-02-2015, 01:03 PM.

    Comment


    • Seriously? Reversing brain death would just require repairing and restarting all the cells at the same time in a instant. Just because we can't do that with modern technology, does not mean that God can't do it. With enough power an knowledge, anything is possible as long as it's logical. And if you want asinine sci-fi analogies, think super-powered heroes that never stay dead, not zombies. Just like a writer can bring back a dead fictional character, God can bring us back even better than before.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        Seriously? Reversing brain death would just require repairing and restarting all the cells at the same time in a instant. Just because we can't do that with modern technology, does not mean that God can't do it. With enough power an knowledge, anything is possible as long as it's logical. And if you want asinine sci-fi analogies, think super-powered heroes that never stay dead, not zombies. Just like a writer can bring back a dead fictional character, God can bring us back even better than before.
        Anything is possible, my friend, including a resurrection. However, if we are going to allow for the supernatural, then the following are also possible, and impossible to disprove:

        1. Leprechauns
        2. fairies
        3. goblins
        4. ghosts
        5. flying witches
        6. Santa Claus
        7. pink unicorns
        8. invisible tea pots orbiting the moon
        9. the flying Spaghetti monster
        10. the supernatural claims of every shaman, witch doctor, and voodoo practioner on the planet.

        and on and on

        If we are going to accept a worldview where ANTHING is possible, why should we ignore all the other tens of thousands of religious supernatural claims in the world today and only believe and obey yours?
        Last edited by Gary; 08-02-2015, 01:12 PM.

        Comment


        • Could someone please explain to Gary why those things he listed have nothing to do with Christianity?
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            Could someone please explain to Gary why those things he listed have nothing to do with Christianity?
            So the only supernatural claims that we should consider (and assume 100% true) are those made by mostly uneducated Christians living 2,000 years ago??

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              So the only supernatural claims that we should consider (and assume 100% true) are those made by mostly uneducated Christians living 2,000 years ago??
              There is evidence. Show me historical evidence or philosophical reasons for those fantastical peopple/creatures/objects to exist, and I would consider it. If Santa actually was giving presents to poor kids around the world, there would be evidence of gifts that no one had bought and a really fast object on radar screens(and violating physics, if someone could pull that stunt one would expect that person to not just be giving children toys). If leprechauns and goblins existed, one would find some kind of evidence given that they are supposed to be corporeal(poop, bodies).
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                Once again I must remind you conservative Christians that YOU are the ones making the extraordinary claim: the resurrection of a dead man. In our culture, like it or not, the person or persons making the extraordinary claim have the burden of proof to prove that claim. The burden of proof is NOT on those of us who question your extra-ordinary claim.

                As mentioned above, if you and your buddies believe that you had a conversation with a space alien last night, the onus is on YOU to give evidence of your claim if you expect anyone else to believe it. The onus is NOT on those of us who doubt your claim, to prove you did not have this extra-terrestial experience.
                Sorry to burst your bubble, but I happen to agree. Having seen a bonafide miracle, I can accept the reality of miracles and acknowledge their source. Were it not for a miracle, I would not believe: and I don't demand more of anyone else.

                And I assert that the only evidence that you have for your extra-ordinary claim is the following:

                1. Four anonymous books, written decades after the event, which describe the alleged appearances of this allegedly resurrected man, the four books containing numerous discrepancies, and two maybe three of those books borrowing heavily from the first to write their story of the event.

                2. The testimony of one man who believed he had seen a talking bright light on a lonely, desert highway.

                3. People who were willing to die for their belief.

                4. People in an honor shame society who were willing to believe a shameful belief.
                You assert things about my reason for belief without knowing anything of my reasons. Your assertions regarding the extent of discrepancies are exaggerated, the time of writing you ascribe to those books is highly questionable. The testimony of this "one man" is declared valid by another who investigated his claims.
                To me, this is poor evidence.
                A reasonable stand-point, on the face of it - but one which is not a result of personal investigation. You merely, naively, accept the word of others who claim to know what they are talking about. That you could parrot the claim that the Bible is shot through with contradictions demonstrates the fact adequately.
                There are many naturalistic explanations for each of these points.
                Let's see if I have understood you correctly ... You're saying that there are natural explanations for events that you declare could not possibly have happened.
                Christians are welcome to believe that this is sufficient evidence for THEM to believe, but more and more educated people are seeing this evidence as nothing more than the hysteria and superstitions of uneducated, superstitious ancient peoples, no different than the origins of many other superstitious beliefs in human history.
                Ah - you're intellectually superior to every Christian in existence. That's quite a faith claim.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  There is evidence. Show me historical evidence or philosophical reasons for those fantastical peopple/creatures/objects to exist, and I would consider it. If Santa actually was giving presents to poor kids around the world, there would be evidence of gifts that no one had bought and a really fast object on radar screens(and violating physics, if someone could pull that stunt one would expect that person to not just be giving children toys). If leprechauns and goblins existed, one would find some kind of evidence given that they are supposed to be corporeal(poop, bodies).
                  So are you saying that we should only consider those supernatural claims which have believers/followers of the claim? Any other criteria?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Sorry to burst your bubble, but I happen to agree. Having seen a bonafide miracle, I can accept the reality of miracles and acknowledge their source. Were it not for a miracle, I would not believe: and I don't demand more of anyone else.

                    You assert things about my reason for belief without knowing anything of my reasons. Your assertions regarding the extent of discrepancies are exaggerated, the time of writing you ascribe to those books is highly questionable. The testimony of this "one man" is declared valid by another who investigated his claims.
                    A reasonable stand-point, on the face of it - but one which is not a result of personal investigation. You merely, naively, accept the word of others who claim to know what they are talking about. That you could parrot the claim that the Bible is shot through with contradictions demonstrates the fact adequately.
                    Let's see if I have understood you correctly ... You're saying that there are natural explanations for events that you declare could not possibly have happened.
                    Ah - you're intellectually superior to every Christian in existence. That's quite a faith claim.
                    No, you have misunderstood, my friend. There are many naturalistic explanations for why early Christians came to believe in a resurrection, an empty tomb, and for why Paul believed that a dead man had appeared to him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      So are you saying that we should only consider those supernatural claims which have believers/followers of the claim? Any other criteria?
                      I already told you the kind of evidence those claims would need! Are you just playing dumb, or are you really this dense? Boy are fundy atheists/agnostics/nontheists annoying!
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        I already told you the kind of evidence those claims would need! Are you just playing dumb, or are you really this dense? Boy are fundy atheists/agnostics/nontheists annoying!
                        I apologize for my stupidity. Would you please direct me to your previous comment?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          I see you're in full troll mode now.
                          He's been in full troll mode for quite some time. He's been studiously ignoring me for a good 20 pages or so now.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                            Gary is setting a world record for the number of times he can fail to grasp the distinction between reanimation and resurrection.
                            Oh, he's aware of the distinction.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              So are you saying that we should only consider those supernatural claims which have believers/followers of the claim? Any other criteria?
                              Here is a supernatural claim of one major world religion, Hinduism. Do you find this supernatural claim believable? If not, why not?

                              Question: Is it possible to speak to Iswara (God) as Sri Ramakrishna did?

                              Sri Ramana Maharshi: When we speak to each other why should we not speak to Iswara in the same way?

                              Question: Then why does it not happen with us?

                              Sri Ramana Maharshi: It requires purity and strength of mind and practice in meditation.

                              Question: Does God become evident if the above conditions exist?

                              Sri Ramana Maharshi: Such manifestations are as real as your own reality. In other words, when you identify yourself with the body, as in the waking state, you see gross objects. When in the subtle body or in the mental plane as in dreams, you see objects equally subtle. In the absence of identification in deep sleep you see nothing. The objects seen bear a relation to the state of the seer. The same applies to visions of God.

                              By long practice the figure of God, as meditated upon, appears in dreams and may later appear in the waking state also.

                              Gary: Do you believe that devout Hindus can become so pure of heart and mind that their gods will appear to them in the waking state, as did Jesus to his devout followers?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                Here is a supernatural claim of one major world religion, Hinduism. Do you find this supernatural claim believable? If not, why not?

                                Question: Is it possible to speak to Iswara (God) as Sri Ramakrishna did?

                                Sri Ramana Maharshi: When we speak to each other why should we not speak to Iswara in the same way?

                                Question: Then why does it not happen with us?

                                Sri Ramana Maharshi: It requires purity and strength of mind and practice in meditation.

                                Question: Does God become evident if the above conditions exist?

                                Sri Ramana Maharshi: Such manifestations are as real as your own reality. In other words, when you identify yourself with the body, as in the waking state, you see gross objects. When in the subtle body or in the mental plane as in dreams, you see objects equally subtle. In the absence of identification in deep sleep you see nothing. The objects seen bear a relation to the state of the seer. The same applies to visions of God.

                                By long practice the figure of God, as meditated upon, appears in dreams and may later appear in the waking state also.

                                Gary: Do you believe that devout Hindus can become so pure of heart and mind that their gods will appear to them in the waking state, as did Jesus to his devout followers?
                                Gary this is a false parallel from the start since the disciples had not spent ages meditating and purifying their hearts when they saw Jesus eg Peter had recently denied Him. There was no work, "strength of mind and practice in meditation", required.
                                In anycase it seems clear to me that the implication carried within what Sri Ramana Maharshi is telling these questioners, is that such purity as is needed actually requires you redefine your own identity and that might mean eschewing the physical.
                                Last edited by Abigail; 08-03-2015, 05:03 AM.

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