Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Mikeenders]

I don't believe you. Why would Singer-Avitz not say a word about the Exodus in her own papers on the very same subject?

Gary theres no other way to say it - you are a fool (edited to be more biblically accurate)- the Kadesh Barnea article was published in 2008 the year is now 2015 the BAR article was two months ago

the pottery article is about several places Kadesh Barnea being just one. not a piece on the exodus - That piece is the BAR article. Like I said alleged doctor if you are too broke to get a subscription you can try your library

I don't give a rip about what you believe. You are just showing yourself to be even more silly than you already have and about to have even more egg on your face

[Gary]

Sheesh....you talk about Christians being silly and brainwashed and incapable of understanding issues then turn around and call me a rabid fool but you can't even read a simple quote. I have told you now several times it is a BAR article and linked to it and told you multiple times its behind a pay wall but you are now informing me of what I have stated several times? THE QUOTE IS FROM THE BAR ARTICLE AUTHORS. Yes they refer to Parr because of his work with midianite pottery but the quote



IS FROM THE BAR AUTHORS (not Parr) - you silly person - there are several authors and the article would not be allowed to be published elsewhere ( ahem - the whole point of a magazine having a paywall)

and Gary - you who calls other people rabid fools - the reason for the dating assessment as i have stated is the "Qurayyah Painted Ware" you know - ahem - the first article listed at her academia profile . Amazingly ye who calls people rabid fools - the article in order to cover Kadesh Barnea does not have to have the word in the title. Go figure.

Why would Singer-Avitz not say a word about the Exodus in her own papers on the very same subject? Anyway, I think Mike and I are really fighting over the definition of this term, "Traditional date of the Exodus". I assumed that this term referred to the fifteenth century, but it seems some Christians consider both the fifteenth and the thirteenth century as two "traditional" dates.

"Both of the conventional dates for the Exodus, (ca. 1450 and ca. 1250 B.C.)"

Source: http://ggreenberg.tripod.com/ancientne/dating.html

Gary: If this is the case, then Mike can claim victory in our dispute.

[Mikeenders]

And here is another link to the article about Kadesh-Barnea and the Midianite pottery. The quote Mike is giving is NOT present in the final paragraph. Is it possible Mike that you conflated Singer-Levy's article with an article by Parr??

HUman nature always amazes. How can someone running around claiming others are fools be such a nitwit. He actually thinks one of the authors of the Bar article would violate copyright and publish the Bar article on their academia page for free. What makes it even more drop down stupid is anyone reading the free excerpt would see there is nothing in the wording of the excerpt that matches the academia articles - can anyone be so dense to think they are the same? Meanwhile does he bother to notice that even in that article she points to stamp seals that point to the 20th and 19th dynasty in a section I dunno sub headed - KADESH BARNEA? Nah

Sheesh and atheist and agnostics swear they are so smart.

[Mikeenders]

Gary: So Parr is not part of Singer-Avitz group. She simply refers to some of his research, done forty years ago. Your article seems to be suggesting that PARR, writing forty years ago, believed that the pottery at Kadesh-Barnea represented the time period of the Exodus. I don't see anywhere where Singer-Avitz and her colleagues, who are all colleagues of Finklestein and Silberman, say anything about the Exodus or that the Midianite pottery at Kadesh-Barnea are from the time period of the Exodus.

Sheesh....you talk about Christians being silly and brainwashed and incapable of understanding issues then turn around and call me a rabid fool but you can't even read a simple quote. I have told you now several times it is a BAR article and linked to it and told you multiple times its behind a pay wall but you are now informing me of what I have stated several times? THE QUOTE IS FROM THE BAR ARTICLE AUTHORS. Yes they refer to Parr because of his work with midianite pottery but the quote

the same pottery found at Kadesh Barnea and dated to the period when the exodus is TRADITIONALLY dated. If the israelites were in Midian as the Bible says they were there is no reason to doubt that they proceeded to Kadesh Barnea.

IS FROM THE BAR AUTHORS (not Parr) - you silly person - there are several authors and the article would not be allowed to be published elsewhere ( ahem - the whole point of a magazine having a paywall)

and Gary - you who calls other people rabid fools - the reason for the dating assessment as i have stated is the "Qurayyah Painted Ware" you know - ahem - the first article listed at her academia profile . Amazingly ye who calls people rabid fools - the article in order to cover Kadesh Barnea does not have to have the word in the title. Go figure.

[Gary]

Stop lying, I quoted from the last paragraph in the article (and told you so) not the free non pay walled synopsis

read er and weep



I can't post the whole thing as I am quite sure it would violate their copyright but I am sure a decent library will probably have that copy in by now if you don't want to get a subscription.




There is no if - you were wrong. As you yourself have stated the author according to you are "friends of finkelstein" and are no evangelical ahem fundamentalist group and they say it matches the TRADITIONAL Date of exodus. SO all your hogwash about me being on the fringe is just that - hogwash

And here is another link to the article about Kadesh-Barnea and the Midianite pottery. The quote Mike is giving is NOT present in the final paragraph. Is it possible Mike that you conflated Singer-Levy's article with an article by Parr??

https://www.academia.edu/13095074/Th...outhern_Levant

And back to the issue of Egyptian rule of Canaan: The Egyptians maintained firm control of Canaan until the reign of Ramses V or VI in the late twelfth or eleventh century. How in the world did the Israelites conquer Canaan in the thirteenth century as Mike and Dr. Hoffmeier want us to believe, if Egypt was at the height of its power, fighting for territory as far north as Syria?? How is it that the Hebrew God Yahweh "destroyed" the Egyptian economy, decimated its population, and drowned its army and Pharaoh, but yet history records this period as Egypt's zenith of power???

This scenario just is NOT credible, folks...unless you are a fundamentalist, for whom it MUST be true...or your entire world collapses!

So back to the fifteenth century: There is NO evidence of any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea in this time period, and the Bible tells us that the two million Hebrews camped there for THIRTY-EIGHT years!

Neither time period is believable!

[Gary]

Stop lying, I quoted from the last paragraph in the article (and told you so) not the free non pay walled synopsis

read er and weep



I can't post the whole thing as I am quite sure it would violate their copyright but I am sure a decent library will probably have that copy in by now if you don't want to get a subscription.




There is no if - you were wrong. As you yourself have stated the author according to you are "friends of finkelstein" and are no evangelical ahem fundamentalist group and they say it matches the TRADITIONAL Date of exodus. SO all your hogwash about me being on the fringe is just that - hogwash

Are we reading the same article??

Here is a link to the research of the primary author of the research paper your article references to, Lily Singer-Avitz:

https://telaviv.academia.edu/LilySingerAvitz

One of her papers is entitled, "Earliest settlement at Kadesh-Barnea" and discusses the "Midianite" pottery. However, I see zero mention anywhere in the article about the Exodus. The link in your article is for members of BAR only. The articles on Lily Singer-Avitz site are free to read. Are we talking about the same article? And, who is Parr??

Ok, I found a reference to "Parr", but he is not one of the researchers in this paper. Here is the quote:

This painted pottery, found in the northwestern Arabian peninsula (Hejaz) and thesouthern Wadi Arabah, was first identified and titled “Midianite Ware” some 40 yearsago (Parr
et al . 1970; Rothenberg 1970). In an attempt to avoid a name associatedwith an ethnic group, and based on the data from Qurayyah (in the northwesternArabian peninsula), where the richest assemblages of this painted pottery as well asthe kilns probably used in their production had been found, Parr (1982; 1988)

Gary: So Parr is not part of Singer-Avitz group. She simply refers to some of his research, done forty years ago. Your article seems to be suggesting that PARR, writing forty years ago, believed that the pottery at Kadesh-Barnea represented the time period of the Exodus. I don't see anywhere where Singer-Avitz and her colleagues, who are all colleagues of Finklestein and Silberman, say anything about the Exodus or that the Midianite pottery at Kadesh-Barnea are from the time period of the Exodus.

[Mikeenders]

and for the record lest I hear some nonsense mischaracterization from you later on - I make nor made no claims that the piece claims to vindicate the exodus. Its a pretty understated article that makes no bold claims in part because the issue is not settled . The nature of ongoing work means we could find out this is wrong, in dispute or we could even potentially find even older dates are workable at Kadesh. What it does illustrate is dogmatic statements about there being no evidence and the issue being settled and "DONE" is nonsense.

Everyone have a great week.

[Mikeenders]

So let's go with Mike and Dr. Hoffmeier and use the thirteenth century as the time of the Exodus. Using this date, there is archeological evidence of human settlement at Kadesh-Barnea. However, is there any evidence of the devastating plagues and the humiliating defeat of Pharaoh and his army at the hands of his runaway slaves? ?

I don't even care how you try and dig yourself out of your blunders - You said there was no archaeological evidence AND the debate was done and finished. You goofed on both - using a traditional date and certainly not a fringe or purely evangelical source research continues and this piece gives indication of pottery with a possible link to Israelites in the time period.

though the issue is by no means even remotely settled this again illustrates the failure of the absence of evidence equals evidence of absence argument. The BAR article is recent but the true ignorance on your part was actually the claim that the matter was settled, done and finished and was open to no more debate. Its a stupid thing to say of archaeology and history where as in this case the mere reexamination of an old dig or even a single new find can lend new light and even reverse old ideas of ANY historical event.

as to the 13th century and go with mike? I actually favor the 1450ish date but then if thats the case then we are heading into some things that Rohl points to which you thoroughly dismissed until you found out Kadesh wasn't quite the slam dunk closed debate you thought it was. Then all of a sudden you were linking to evangelical conservative sites to support you who you previously said were not to be trusted on anything due to their bias.

[Mikeenders]

You are misquoting your source, Mike. Here it is:

Stop lying, I quoted from the last paragraph in the article (and told you so) not the free non pay walled synopsis

read er and weep

It was here that Parr found characteristic Midian ware later calle Qurayyah Painted Ware - the same pottery found at Kadesh Barnea and dated to the period when the exodus is TRADITIONALLY dated. If the israelites were in Midian as the Bible says they were there is no reason to doubt that they proceeded to Kadesh Barnea.

I can't post the whole thing as I am quite sure it would violate their copyright but I am sure a decent library will probably have that copy in by now if you don't want to get a subscription.

And let me say this to everyone: If anywhere I said that there is NO archeological evidence for any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during ANY claimed time period for the Exodus, then Mike is right, I am wrong.

There is no if - you were wrong. As you yourself have stated the author according to you are "friends of finkelstein" and are no evangelical ahem fundamentalist group and they say it matches the TRADITIONAL Date of exodus. SO all your hogwash about me being on the fringe is just that - hogwash

[Gary]

So let's go with Mike and Dr. Hoffmeier and use the thirteenth century as the time of the Exodus. Using this date, there is archeological evidence of human settlement at Kadesh-Barnea. However, is there any evidence of the devastating plagues and the humiliating defeat of Pharaoh and his army at the hands of his runaway slaves? Even if it is true that the Egyptians would not want to record their military defeat, would we not find evidence of a very weakened, even decimated Egypt in the thirteenth century?

Also, Canaan was a protectorate, occupied territory of Egypt for an extended period of time in ancient history. If the Exodus occurred in the thirteenth century was Canaan still occupied by Egyptian troops? If so, why don't we read of confrontations between the Egyptian troops in Canaan and the invading Israelites. I will do a search for the date when Egyptian control of Canaan ended to confirm this.

Source: http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultu...t02-05enl.html

The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.

The New Kingdom (1570–1070 BC) followed the Second Intermediate Period and was succeeded by the Third Intermediate Period. It was Egypt’s most prosperous time and marked the zenith of its power.

Possibly as a result of the foreign rule of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period, the New Kingdom saw Egypt attempt to create a buffer between the Levant and Egypt, and attained its greatest territorial extent. It expanded far south into Nubia and held wide territories in the Near East. Egyptian armies fought Hittite armies for control of modern-day Syria.

Gary: Egypt seems to be at the height of its power. Fighting great battles as far away north as Syria. Are we really to believe that the Egyptians allowed the runaway slaves to occupy Canaan without a fight??

[Gary]

MORE GARY more. Let everyone see how desperate you are and without any thing of substance to come back with now that either late or early dates leaves you with some explaining to do. Tell us again how "friends of Finkelstein" and BAR are on the fringe of scholarship for claiming the date of the exodus matches the midian pottery at kadesh. Tell us all again how they are just rabid fundamentalists for claiming that.

Do you want the number for the magazine so you can tell then how they are like those that burned witches? HAHA

Its still quite funny so give me another round of laughter at least......lol

You are misquoting your source, Mike. Here it is:

"BAR coauthor Lily Singer-Avitz suggests that several finds discovered in the later strata, including Egyptian-style seals and seal impressions and local pottery sherds, should be associated with a Late Bronze Age–Early Iron I period presence at Tell el-Qudeirat. Particularly important are the sherds belonging to what is called Qurayyah Painted Ware found in different strata throughout the site. As Singer-Avitz argues:

'The Qurayyah Painted Ware was in use during the latter part of the Late Bronze and the Iron I periods, from the 12th to the 11th centuries B.C.E., about the time of the Exodus from Egypt according to those who attribute some historicity to this central Biblical event." "

She is not endorsing the historicity of the Exodus. And something odd, I could not find this quote in the research paper written by Singer-Avitz that your brief article refers to. Could you find it and give me a page number? I would like to confirm she really said this. Thanks, Mike.

And let me say this to everyone: If anywhere I said that there is NO archeological evidence for any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during ANY claimed time period for the Exodus, then Mike is right, I am wrong. The correct statement should be: there is no archeological evidence for any settlement at Kadesh-Barnea during the fifteenth century, the time period when the majority of Christian Bible scholars say that the Exodus occurred. Is that better, Mike?

[Mikeenders]

You are rabid, Mike. Foaming at the mouth, rabid, I say again.

It was rabid fundamentalists like you who lit the piers to burn alive thousands of innocent "heretics" and "witches" while piously beating their chests, calling out to their imaginary, invisible ghost god for vindication of their heinous, immoral crimes.

MORE GARY more. Let everyone see how desperate you are and without any thing of substance to come back with now that either late or early dates leaves you with some explaining to do. Tell us again how "friends of Finkelstein" and BAR are on the fringe of scholarship for claiming the date of the exodus matches the midian pottery at kadesh. Tell us all again how they are just rabid fundamentalists for claiming that.

Do you want the number for the magazine so you can tell then how they are like those that burned witches? HAHA

Its still quite funny so give me another round of laughter at least......lol

[Gary]

and yet I am not the one that just got his head handed to him by relating new data you were totally unaware of. Like I have said before don't play poker - your "tell" is so easy to see. Whenever you get face palmed by facts you go to name calling fundamental - so we can all see who is the rabid fool of this thread and the name of that poster begins with G and ends with Y

You are rabid, Mike. Foaming at the mouth, rabid, I say again.

It was rabid fundamentalists like you who lit the piers to burn alive thousands of innocent "heretics" and "witches" while piously beating their chests, calling out to their imaginary, invisible ghost god for vindication of their heinous, immoral crimes.

The bones of millions of victims of your ancient cult cry out for justice against you and your fundamentalist brethren. Your cult must be unmasked for its crimes. It's fear-based superstitions must be debunked for the well-being of all humanity.

[Mikeenders]

You are a fundamentalist, and on top of that a rabid fool.

and yet I am not the one that just got his head handed to him by relating new data you were totally unaware of. Like I have said before don't play poker - your "tell" is so easy to see. Whenever you get face palmed by facts you go to name calling fundamental - so we can all see who is the rabid fool of this thread and the name of that poster begins with G and ends with Y

[Gary]

Yawn ........he tries desperately yet again to wipe the egg glued to his face.......Midian pottery at Kadesh dating to the conventional dating of exodus - multiple possible references to other point of the exodus accounts if you push it back to 14-1500s - not read Rohl yet eh? I mean now that you and him agree on a later date - magically in the last 48 hours - you should now be best buds so go read his work.

Your claims of no evidence - debate over - matter settled are toast

Just how ignorant and foolish are you willing to appear to the educated world, Mike, to hold onto your ancient superstition? Your position on the dating of the Exodus is the fringe of the fringe. But even using your dating, Midianite dishware is not proof of millions of Hebrews camped out at Kadesh-Barnea for thirty-eight years.

You are a fundamentalist, and on top of that a rabid fool.