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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    Are you saying that just because a large number of people believe something, and have believed that belief for a very long time, that is proof that the belief is true?
    no. I am saying that the evidence is good enough so that a heck of a lot of people over the centuries have turned to Christ, compared to those who choose to ignore the evidence like yourself.

    Comment


    • Hi Gray,

      The the resurrection evidence, that being the Christian NT documents, which make supernatural claims in its regard.
      The genuine Christian faith has two elements to its claims. Historical, and supernatural.

      What have you got thus far histroical that you can substantiate? And what truth claim has been presented that can help you accept it?
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        Here's what I recommend.

        Deal with the case that was presented. Your wanting to turn to someone else to do your thinking for you is evidence enough you can't deal with the evidence.

        The evidence has been enough to pass peer-review at secular institutions.

        When you're ready to deal with the real case, let me know. Until then, Dave and William are providing intelligent conversation and not cowardly dodges.
        Again, I never said that there is ZERO evidence for your claim, Nick I just said that your evidence isn't good, strong evidence; not good or strong enough to convince the average, educated, 21st century person that it is a historical fact, and that is why it is not listed as an historical fact in ANY public university history text book on planet earth.

        In addition, I challenge you to prove that the peer review boards agreed that the "evidence" they reviewed supported a real, literal, bodily resurrection of a dead man. A secular university peer review board might endorse the evidence of early Christian BELIEF in a resurrection, but not that there is good evidence to believe it really happened. Please show me ONE secular review board which has stated that they believe that the evidence presented by Christian apologists is sufficient to classify the Resurrection as an historical fact.

        You can't and you know it, Nick.

        You are just blowing smoke to cover your retreat.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          no. I am saying that the evidence is good enough so that a heck of a lot of people over the centuries have turned to Christ, compared to those who choose to ignore the evidence like yourself.
          A heck of a lot of people have turned to Allah over the centuries. So what is your point?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Hi Gray,

            The the resurrection evidence, that being the Christian NT documents, which make supernatural claims in its regard.
            The genuine Christian faith has two elements to its claims. Historical, and supernatural.

            What have you got thus far histroical that you can substantiate? And what truth claim has been presented that can help you accept it?
            Go talk to the professional historians, friend. I am not the one who decides what gets into a history book as fact and what gets in as a belief. The fact is: The Resurrection of Jesus is not listed as an historical fact in any pubic university history textbook on the planet; if it is listed at all, it is listed as a belief.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              Again, I never said that there is ZERO evidence for your claim, Nick I just said that your evidence isn't good, strong evidence;
              And you demonstrated this by your great inability to handle it. Instead, you played to analogies over and over without dealing with the scholarship and then even tried to treat it like it doesn't matter.

              not good or strong enough to convince the average, educated, 21st century person that it is a historical fact, and that is why it is not listed as an historical fact in ANY public university history text book on planet earth.
              Which is trying to avoid your intellectual responsibility to answer a question or make a case. I take it as a tacit confession that you don't have one.

              In addition, I challenge you to prove that the peer review boards agreed that the "evidence" they reviewed supported a real, literal, bodily resurrection of a dead man. A secular university peer review board might endorse the evidence of early Christian BELIEF in a resurrection, but not that there is good evidence to believe it really happened. Please show me ONE secular review board which has stated that they believe that the evidence presented by Christian apologists is sufficient to classify the Resurrection as an historical fact.

              You can't and you know it, Nick.

              You are just blowing smoke to cover your retreat.
              My retreat?

              Good night. You actually think you're a threat to someone? Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

              Peer-review boards don't necessarily agree with what they peer-review that is submitted. It simply means that the person who made the case is intellectually justified in their position and have thoroughly made a case that they can make a defense of the proposition. Licona's Ph.D. did that. So did Habermas's.

              Stop being a coward and deal with the arguments.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                I would be happy to after you answer mine.
                You were happy to answer Cow Poke before he gave his own answers. I only ask to receive the same treatment.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  A heck of a lot of people have turned to Allah over the centuries. So what is your point?
                  Islam is not based on historical evidence, so that doesn't count. Your knowledge of other religions seems as poor as your knowledge of Christianity.

                  If the evidence for Christianity is not good enough for the average educated 21st century person to accept (as you put it) then why do they believe in overwhelming numbers compared to atheism?

                  And it is apparent to everyone reading this thread that Nick is far more educated than you are. So maybe you are the ignorant one.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    The evidence is good enough so that millions of people have accepted it since Christ walked the earth. Compare that to atheists (sure you are an agnostic LOL) like you who only want to mock Christianity and God. You have historically only made up a few measly percent of the population. So that seems to indicate that the evidence is pretty good. Go ahead and write your letter.

                    Are you related to skepticbud by any chance? Or do all new atheists just act the same way?

                    I think those who do not believe in Christianity far outnumber those who do, but the number of who believe and who do not believe don't really get at the question of whether it's actually true or whether there is substantial evidence for believing in the Resurrection. In some ways this is weird question as there are both those who obviously believe it as well as those who obviously do not - so i suppose the answer is yes and no.

                    I am curious though about another test. Is there any other supernatural claim in history that has similar historic backing as the Resurrection? If so, what, and do those who believe in the Resurrection also believe in this other miraculous tale of an extra-Judaeo-christian miracle, since it has comparable historical evidence?

                    Gary/Dave, do you guys know of any that could be compared?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Islam is not based on historical evidence, so that doesn't count. Your knowledge of other religions seems as poor as your knowledge of Christianity.

                      If the evidence for Christianity is not good enough for the average educated 21st century person to accept (as you put it) then why do they believe in overwhelming numbers compared to atheism?

                      And it is apparent to everyone reading this thread that Nick is far more educated than you are. So maybe you are the ignorant one.
                      atheism is on the rise. I'd wager that more christians "convert" to atheism than the other way around. But if numbers counted as meaningful, one may have to divide Christianity into its denominations, but even if not, Islam is as large as Christianity and is growing faster, last stat I heard.

                      Comment


                      • Really??? I bet you don't count developing countries.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Islam is not based on historical evidence
                          what do you mean?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            Really??? I bet you don't count developing countries.
                            what was this in response to?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by William View Post
                              what was this in response to?
                              The claim that more Christians deconvert to atheism. Anyways, just because developed countries mightt be becoming more secular does not mean Christianity is disappearing globally.
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                Mind explaining for the peanut gallery why it would be counterproductive for Jesus to appear to everyone?
                                I guess I'd like an explanation. It God is referred to as our father, what good father hides from his children, and then has a letter written by someone else for his children, explaining that because he loves them so much, he is giving them a choice. The choice is that they can accept and love and follow their hidden father and receive his inheritance, or they can choose not to follow him and not get that inheritance. He wants a true decision based on love... except if they do not choose to follow him he will torture them.

                                And then we have Elijah's test to the prophets of Baal. Would the biblical God pass that test today or fail like Baal did? Is he sleeping or too busy? Appearing to all of creation (your children) should be easy for an all powerful God and it it would people make a more informed decision.

                                Comment

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